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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

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  #271  
Old 07-19-2018, 12:11 AM
packers stem packers stem is offline
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No.
The correction is not Badham's or Hutchinson's.
It was made after the signing.

If Badham had taken it higher before the signing,it would have been initialed.
Aren't there two completely different signatures on page 1 and page 2 anyway ?
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  #272  
Old 07-19-2018, 12:54 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by packers stem View Post
Aren't there two completely different signatures on page 1 and page 2 anyway ?
Only the first "H" in "Hutchinson" materially differs, and the other letters are very similar, if not pretty much the same.
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  #273  
Old 07-19-2018, 12:55 AM
DJA DJA is offline
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Don't have it in front of me,however that does ring a bell.

I don't use my "bank signature" on everything.

Changed my capital H's some years ago. Rarely write the original anymore.
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Last edited by DJA : 07-19-2018 at 12:57 AM. Reason: Last line.
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  #274  
Old 07-19-2018, 01:26 AM
packers stem packers stem is offline
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Don't have it in front of me,however that does ring a bell.

I don't use my "bank signature" on everything.

Changed my capital H's some years ago. Rarely write the original anymore.
Did you sign it the old way and the new way on the same day Dave ? On the very same day you just so happen to be signing an important document ?

Signatures are formulated over a period of time , doesn't drastically change on the day .
Either way , a very well educated person created both of George's signatures ... ahem
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  #275  
Old 07-19-2018, 01:28 AM
packers stem packers stem is offline
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Only the first "H" in "Hutchinson" materially differs, and the other letters are very similar, if not pretty much the same.
The capital is the most important letter of a signature and very unlikely to change.... certainly not within minutes
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  #276  
Old 07-19-2018, 02:03 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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The capital is the most important letter of a signature and very unlikely to change.... certainly not within minutes
My first attempt at my signature often comes out wrong, to the extent where I take a few "practice runs" on a bit of scrap paper before I sign anything. This is especially true in recent years, since I very rarely use my signature - I can't remember when I last signed a cheque or wrote a letter, for example. I doubt that an unemployed groom/labourer in the 1880s would have had too many opportunities to practice his handwriting, still less his signature, so it's hardly surprising if one or two letters came out wonky when he was asked to sign the statement. The fact that he starts out with a "flowery" H and then abandons it is not particularly surprising either - I sometimes affect a "flowery" first letter in one or both parts of my name, only to give it up as a bad job on the next page. Besides, the fact remains that the "Geo(rge) utchinson" bits don't significantly differ from each other on all three pages of the statement, and I see no reason to suppose that they were the work of different men.
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  #277  
Old 07-19-2018, 02:32 AM
DJA DJA is offline
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Originally Posted by packers stem View Post
Did you sign it the old way and the new way on the same day Dave ? On the very same day you just so happen to be signing an important document ?

Signatures are formulated over a period of time , doesn't drastically change on the day .
Either way , a very well educated person created both of George's signatures ... ahem
I do.
Rarely use my bank signature or sign important documents.
Last December springs to mind.
Bank,Medicare,Chiro,Chemist. Only the bank got my official signature.

Expect Hutchinson received an excellent education aboard The Exmouth.
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  #278  
Old 07-19-2018, 03:43 AM
packers stem packers stem is offline
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My first attempt at my signature often comes out wrong, to the extent where I take a few "practice runs" on a bit of scrap paper before I sign anything. This is especially true in recent years, since I very rarely use my signature - I can't remember when I last signed a cheque or wrote a letter, for example. I doubt that an unemployed groom/labourer in the 1880s would have had too many opportunities to practice his handwriting, still less his signature, so it's hardly surprising if one or two letters came out wonky when he was asked to sign the statement. The fact that he starts out with a "flowery" H and then abandons it is not particularly surprising either - I sometimes affect a "flowery" first letter in one or both parts of my name, only to give it up as a bad job on the next page. Besides, the fact remains that the "Geo(rge) utchinson" bits don't significantly differ from each other on all three pages of the statement, and I see no reason to suppose that they were the work of different men.
I'm stunned at the lengths people will go to to back up a pet theory in ripperology .
I felt sure you could sign your own name and your experience of having to practice is not typical .
I rarely pick up a pen these days as everything is digital but if I'm signing a cheque , credit agreement or the like I can certainly do it.Though my writing isn't what it used to be due to lack of practice my signature isn't an issue .
I'm just trying to picture someone asking for a scrap of paper in a car showroom saying they need to practice before signing lol
The whole idea of a signature is that it's meant to be personal to you .....most people practiced it in their teens maybe but not later .
I do however agree that that the perfectly flowing signature on page 2 was not that of a groom/labourer ..... that much is obvious .
Clearly someone well used to handling a pen
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  #279  
Old 07-19-2018, 03:55 AM
DJA DJA is offline
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Personal groom.
Personal steward was the naval term.
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  #280  
Old 07-19-2018, 04:05 AM
Phil Carter Phil Carter is offline
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Hi all,

First of all there are three main differences.
One, The H in Hutchinson and two, the foreshortening of the Christian name from George to Geo. Then we look at the so called marriage certificate of One of the proposed "identities" of Hutchinson. It is totally different. To BOTH signatures on the statement

When one looks at the complete statement, the person who wrote "H Division" is clearly the writer of one of the signatures. Exactly the same H is used. It also shows that this person wrote the text on that same page.
Mr Hutchinson would not write "H Division" at the top of the page.. A policeman would. That is very plainly true.
So whomever wrote that part of the text signed the document as well. At least once.

Then we come to point two. "Geo" is not written with a full stop of abbreviation and is flowing, without pause, into Hutchinson. This is most unusual to do, especially with an abbreviated form of Christian name. A pause in a signature is almost always in place between the two names..if the Christian name is written either in full or abbreviated.

Seems to me Badham signed once, with either Hutchinson himself or a. n. other policeman, possibly Abberline, signing the other example.


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