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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Non-Canonical Victims > Torso Killings

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  #71  
Old 07-07-2018, 08:26 PM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
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What happened to the Ripper victims was very different to what happened to the torso victims, and the pattern of the crimes was very different, both temporally and geographically.
The myth of the rigged mo. I think the killer just varied his method. If you kill and remove organs quickly in the street you dont have to go through the whole process of getting someone to a location where you can then kill, mutilate, dismember, package and then go through the laborious and risky disposal process.
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  #72  
Old 07-08-2018, 12:21 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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I don't do myths.
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  #73  
Old 07-08-2018, 05:57 AM
John Wheat John Wheat is offline
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What happened to the Ripper victims was very different to what happened to the torso victims, and the pattern of the crimes was very different, both temporally and geographically.
Quite right Gareth. There's nothing to suggest the Ripper and Torso Killer were one and the same.
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  #74  
Old 07-08-2018, 04:23 PM
Pcdunn Pcdunn is offline
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I would agree, despite the argument by some on these boards that they are just that.
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  #75  
Old 07-18-2018, 05:08 PM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
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Quite right Gareth. There's nothing to suggest the Ripper and Torso Killer were one and the same.
That's pure hogwash. There's quite a bit that suggests the cases could be related. For instance: two serial killers operating at the same time in the same territory both targeting female sex workers and removing organs and both leaving dead bodies or body parts in public. I think the most significant is that they both show a similar skill when it comes to mutilating the bodies. Would anyone care to disagree with me on this?

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  #76  
Old 07-18-2018, 11:03 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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I disagree, Rocky. For one thing, we're not talking about the same territory, but the opposite ends of the most populous city in Europe. For another, the wounds are very different, as are the timescales and frequency of the murders. I could go on, but that'll do.
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  #77  
Old 07-18-2018, 11:54 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is online now
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
I disagree, Rocky. For one thing, we're not talking about the same territory, but the opposite ends of the most populous city in Europe. For another, the wounds are very different, as are the timescales and frequency of the murders. I could go on, but that'll do.
You are misleading rather heavily here, Gareth, so let´s correct you point by point:

1. You say that we are talking about the "opposite ends of the most populous city in the world". That would mean the far East and the far West.
But the actual truth is that we have no idea where the torso victims were picked up and killed, but for the Pinchin Street victim, where there is reason to surmise that she was at least cut up in close proximity to where she was found - which was in the East. Not in the West.
Other torso victim parts were found in various places like Tottenham, St Pancras Lock, Battersea, none of which are in the extreme West.

It´s all good and well to point out that the torso parts were not found (with the Pinchin Street exception) in Ripper territory. But let´s keep in mind that the parts were actually transported to where they were dumped, meaning that the dumper had the means to take them whereever he wanted to. And all the while, that says nothing about where he was based, where he found the women and where he killed them.

The TRUE difference in this context is that some were dismembered while others were not. And there are examples of serial killers who have varied this detail inbetween victims. Many serialists are opportunists, and that means that they are ready and willing to take their chances even if it means varying their MO

Basically, your point is heavily flawed and does not stand up to scrutiny.

2. You claim that the wounds were very different, and that too is a flawed statement. There were wounds that differed a lot, but since some were dismembered and others not, that will always be the case. However! There were many wounds that were very much alike inbetween the cases, like abdomens cut open all the way down, like flaps being cut away from the abdomens, like uteri being cut out, like necks (and throats) being deeply cut. We can argue til the cows come home about how similar these damages were, but let´s halt that discussion in favour of recognizing that these thing DID happen to victims in both serie and that we cannot say that the wounds were very different for that reason. Some were, due to the dismemberment factor, but others may have been very much alike.

3. You say that the timescales and the frequencies differed. Yes, if we go by the victims we think belong to each series, they did. Then again, many serial killers are erratic in this respect, laying off the killing for years, then killing frequently again etcetera. So there is a difference, but it is not necessarily significant in any way, and it certainly does not tell us that the two were different killers.

Once again, having two serial killers in the same city, overlapping in time, targetting prostitutes (as far as we can tell), cutting the abdomens open, taking out organs, providing very little or no torture, and both taking away abdominal walls in large flaps (in some cases) puts any discussion of two killers to rest once we apply the laws of logic.

The only useful thing about the differences you perceive and overstate rather grossly is that they can - and probably will - teach us more about the killer we are hunting that we have ever been able to learn before.

If we are willing to learn, that is...

Last edited by Fisherman : 07-18-2018 at 11:57 PM.
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  #78  
Old 07-19-2018, 03:11 AM
John Wheat John Wheat is offline
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Originally Posted by RockySullivan View Post
That's pure hogwash. There's quite a bit that suggests the cases could be related. For instance: two serial killers operating at the same time in the same territory both targeting female sex workers and removing organs and both leaving dead bodies or body parts in public. I think the most significant is that they both show a similar skill when it comes to mutilating the bodies. Would anyone care to disagree with me on this?
No you are talking pure hogwash. They don't both show a similar skill. Plus one killer dismembered and the other did not. They did not operate at the same time 1873-1889 one and the other 1888. That is not the same time it's an overlap. Jack targeted a small area of London. The Torso Killer operated all around London. We don't know that The Torso Killer targeted sex workers only one was identified so unless your a clairvoyant how do you know The Torso Killer targeted sex workers?
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  #79  
Old 07-19-2018, 05:22 AM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
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No you are talking pure hogwash. They don't both show a similar skill. Plus one killer dismembered and the other did not. They did not operate at the same time 1873-1889 one and the other 1888. That is not the same time it's an overlap. Jack targeted a small area of London. The Torso Killer operated all around London. We don't know that The Torso Killer targeted sex workers only one was identified so unless your a clairvoyant how do you know The Torso Killer targeted sex workers?
They don't show similar skill? Please go into some forensic detail for us.
One killer dismembered and the other didnt, but they both mutilated. While Mary Kelly wasn't dismembered she's cut to pieces. They didn't operate at the same time but there's overlap? They were both operating at the same time in 1888. Period, the Whitehall torso found in October. Operating in the same location, Berner St-Pinchin proximity. Torso killer killed(TARGETED) Liz Jackson therefore him and Jack both killed sex workers. Period.

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  #80  
Old 07-19-2018, 05:39 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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They were both operating at the same time in 1888. Period, the Whitehall torso found in October. Operating in the same location, Berner St-Pinchin proximity.
That's just one example each of time and location, when ALL the other times and locations differed. Plus, it should be borne in mind that the only torso victim left in the East End was deposited in part of the East End where the most contentious of the canonical Ripper victims was slain.
Quote:
While Mary Kelly wasn't dismembered she's cut to pieces
But she's not in the least bit "jointed", and all her abdominal (and two thoracic organs) were entirely removed. Nothing remotely like that happened to the majority of the torso victims and, of the one or two whose organs were removed, the evisceration was trivial compared to Kelly, or even Eddowes and Chapman for that matter.
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