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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Hutchinson, George

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  #251  
Old 07-12-2018, 11:45 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Wouldn't he need to know who the woman was first?
Where does the name "Sarah Lewis" come from?

Hutch is standing in Dorset St. and this woman following on behind Kelly & Astrachan walks up the passage. She is not a resident, so how does he go about identifying her without causing suspicion?
And why should he, was he also concerned about the man he saw enter the lodging-house?
The man could have gone to the police, and they might believe a man over a woman.
wicker!

[quote]Hutch is standing in Dorset St. and this woman following on behind Kelly & Astrachan walks up the passage.
QUOTE]


this isn't how it happened and you know it!
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but a dream within a dream?"

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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #252  
Old 07-12-2018, 11:49 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
not so sure about that wick

Hutch could have seen the bethnal green botherer himself that night, and or heard rumors, but as I think sams main point was-made him up from the bits he heard about in the press on other suspects.
Yes Abby, but there were legitimate suspect descriptions available, he had no need to make one up.
Your favorite 'peaked-cap' man for instance. All three of the Double-event suspects were published in the Daily Telegraph on the 12th. The PC Smith suspect, Broad-shouldered man, & your guy.

Why create something completely out of the ordinary like Astrachan?
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  #253  
Old 07-12-2018, 11:52 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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[quote=Abby Normal;452044]wicker!

Quote:
Hutch is standing in Dorset St. and this woman following on behind Kelly & Astrachan walks up the passage.
QUOTE]


this isn't how it happened and you know it!
That is was Lewis said, and I do know it.
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  #254  
Old 07-12-2018, 12:11 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Yes Abby, but there were legitimate suspect descriptions available, he had no need to make one up.
Your favorite 'peaked-cap' man for instance. All three of the Double-event suspects were published in the Daily Telegraph on the 12th. The PC Smith suspect, Broad-shouldered man, & your guy.

Why create something completely out of the ordinary like Astrachan?
well since you've referenced my much beloved peaked cap man Im going to completely agree with you! : )
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #255  
Old 07-12-2018, 12:13 PM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is offline
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Hi folks, today we are playing a new game of 'Conflicting Witness Statements."

Today's contestant is Sarah Lewis—

"Where are you from, Sarah?"

"34 Great Pearl Street."

"Wonderful, wonderful. Are you ready to play?"

"Yes."

9th November 1888

"Between 2 and 3 o’clock this morning I came to stop with the Keylers, at No 2 Millers Court . . . when I came up the Court there was a man standing over against the lodging house on the opposite side in Dorset Street [‘‘talking to a female” — deleted] but I cannot describe him."

12th November 1888

"When I went into the court, opposite the lodging-house I saw a man with a wideawake. There was no one talking to him. He was a stout-looking man, and not very tall. The hat was black. I did not take any notice of his clothes. The man was looking up the court; he seemed to be waiting or looking for some one. Further on there was a man and woman - the latter being in drink. There was nobody in the court."
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  #256  
Old 07-12-2018, 12:31 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harry View Post
Jon,
Nowhere in your description of a grooms occupation have you established a need or a qualification of a superior use of memory function equal to that exhibited by Hutchinson.
Harry.
It's not 'superior', that's the point.
Who told you it was 'superior', I'd like to see the evidence for that. The whole premise is flawed.


Quote:
Not as to detail.Nor is your argument on the use of notebooks of any value,as Hutchinson is not known to have recorded anything in written form,or was reading from a written acount.
You brought up the notebook argument, I had to wonder why.

Quote:
Nor was Sarah Lewis reported as saying Hutchigson was watching a couple.
Her observation of him was that he appeared to be looking up the court.Just that.
Right, and she saw the couple pass up the court.
And, when Lewis got to the court there was no-one in the court.
So they had to go inside, like Kelly & Astrachan did.
How can you possibly read it differently, it's right there in black & white.

Quote:
You have been told consistently,that Kelly and Aman,according to Hutchinson,passed up the court well before the 2.30 appearance of Lewis.She cannot give a description of Aman,because she did not see him.
Wrong Harry!
You are right that others have made that claim, but Lewis does not say she arrived there at 2:30, that's your assumption.

In her police statement she says she was there "between 2 and 3 o'clock".
In her court testimony she says she was there "at 2:30", not she arrived there at 2:30.
She was already there when the clock struck 2:30 - so she had to arrive BEFORE 2:30.

She also said:
"On the Friday morning about half past two when I was coming to Miller's Court..."
So she passed Spitalfields clock ABOUT half past two, not AT half past two.
You have to admit, she can't have been at both places at the same time.

Quote:
Now to your post 215.
Are you suggesting that the description attributed to Hutchinson was in fact suggested by or scripted by Badham,and was not a true account.
No, I'm saying the paragraph is by Badham.

This, the whole thing, in police format, by Badham.
Description age about 34 or 35. height 5ft6 complexion pale, dark eyes and eye lashes slight moustache, curled up each end, and hair dark, very surley looking dress long dark coat, collar and cuffs trimmed astracan. And a dark jacket under. Light waistcoat dark trousers dark felt hat turned down in the middle. Button boots and gaiters with white buttons. Wore a very thick gold chain white linen collar. Black tie with horse shoe pin. Respectable appearance walked very sharp. Jewish appearance. Can be identified.

Quote:
Your words.In fact that whole paragraph of description detail will belong to Badham.It is given there in typical police format.So what in your opinion Jon,did Hutchinson really report?
Badham has reduced Hutchinson's dialogue into terse & brief wording in keeping with their common format.
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  #257  
Old 07-12-2018, 12:55 PM
DJA DJA is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert St Devil View Post
life is kopasetic in K-town, dave, how's life down under?

Had "American cloth" been used in descriptions of the ripper prior to Hutchinson's? It seemed like a curious mention when Hutch could have easily got away with just using "parcel" or playing off the "black bag". What gets me is how the cloth might refer to waterproof material, which may have been handy when dealing with blood or concealing a removed organ.
Most superlative Rob

Winter here. Struggling to get to 10C most days

Unsure of your source for "American cloth" which is waterproofed cotton cloth.
Surmise it is from the newspapers
Have a Drizabone coat and a waxed sleeveless jacket which are sort of related.

Reckon Dr Phillips took the organs home for cool storage.

There was no A man.

Cheers!
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  #258  
Old 07-12-2018, 01:14 PM
DJA DJA is offline
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Is there a list of observers at Mary Kelly's inquest?
Is Henry Gawen Sutton on the list?
He was the Shoreditch Vestry's medical officer,probably better known as the expert consulted over Eddowes' kidney.Eventually people will wake up he was Jack the Ripper.

OK that's surmise,however given Hutchinson turned up soon after the inquest,there is a fair chance that was the source.

"Sarah Lewis deposed: I live at 24, Great Pearl-street, and am a laundress. I know Mrs. Keyler, in Miller's-court, and went to her house at 2, Miller's-court, at 2.30a.m. on Friday. It is the first house. I noticed the time by the Spitalfields' Church clock. When I went into the court, opposite the lodging-house I saw a man with a wideawake. There was no one talking to him. He was a stout-looking man, and not very tall. The hat was black. I did not take any notice of his clothes. The man was looking up the court; he seemed to be waiting or looking for some one. Further on there was a man and woman - the later being in drink. There was nobody in the court. I dozed in a chair at Mrs. Keyler's, and woke at about half- past three. I heard the clock strike."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Wouldn't he need to know who the woman was first?
Where does the name "Sarah Lewis" come from?

Hutch is standing in Dorset St. and this woman following on behind Kelly & Astrachan walks up the passage. She is not a resident, so how does he go about identifying her without causing suspicion?
And why should he, was he also concerned about the man he saw enter the lodging-house?
The man could have gone to the police, and they might believe a man over a woman.
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  #259  
Old 07-12-2018, 01:49 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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DJA (Dave).

Not sure what you are trying to say.

The suggestion that Hutchinson looked for Sarah Lewis requires him to be present inside the court, yet there was no room for more than a handful of people. The inquest was held in a small room, like the living room of a house.
yes, it was a Victorian house, so quite large, but it wasn't a Town Hall or football stadium.
Hutch would easily have been seen by Abberline.
That tends to destroy the argument - his game would have been up the minute he walked in to give his statement.

Therefore, he wasn't at the inquest.

Did he stand outside and wait for the witnesses to come out?
If so, then how does he know if he was even seen, and which woman saw him in Dorset St?
How does he even know she would be a witness?
That was my question.

This plot is so full of holes....
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  #260  
Old 07-12-2018, 02:27 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJA View Post
.......,however given Hutchinson turned up soon after the inquest,there is a fair chance that was the source.
Before the inquest had terminated, the Star published their early edition.
In it they gave a subtitle to Cox's testimony - The Murderer Described.
Given that Cox suggested a suspect with Kelly at 11:45 pm on Thursday, then saying all was quiet in Kelly's room at 3:00.
Hutchinson would know this could not be true.
The Cox suspect could not be the murderer.
Reason enough to come forward.
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