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  #131  
Old 06-23-2018, 07:39 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by packers stem View Post
Yes
You've just confirmed what I was saying .
The street door (that you suggest Kelly went through with blotchy for some reason ) is on the street lol
Seriously, I have to wonder why you are making this so difficult.
The street door was not used by anyone, and certainly not Kelly, who lived at the back. All the street door did was give access to the common area within the house, it was now part of the shed where the barrows were kept - that's why it was locked.

Quote:
Yes Kelly's room was opposite the Keylers but i
there is a difference between a sound 'outside the door ' as opposed to in a room opposite
Kelly can't live at the front if her door is opposite No.2 - for goodness sake's :-)

You've already been made aware that the couple who lived above Kelly slept through the whole thing.
A 'couple' is not Prater.
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  #132  
Old 06-23-2018, 08:26 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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At the inquest Prater said:
"I noticed the lodging-house light was out, so it was after 4 probably".


Here, we can see the huge lodginghouse lights out on Dorset St.
One of them is over the passage, so beside Praters window.



I honestly cannot see the point in arguing that Kelly lived in the front room when every single account of Kelly entering her room has her walking down the passage first!

Talk about wearing blinkers...
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  #133  
Old 06-23-2018, 11:29 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Here's a description of the property, which includes the shed.

"....The ground floor of the house to the right of this court is used as a store, with a gate entrance, and the upper floors are let off in tenements, as is the case also with M'Carthy's house."
Morning Post, 10 Nov.

This "store, with a gate entrance" is the shed.

Prater said:
" I live at 20 Room, in Miller's-court, above the shed. Deceased occupied a room below."
Daily Telegraph, 13 Nov.

Kelly occupied "a" room below, not "thee" room below.
"Thee" room below was the shed!
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  #134  
Old 06-23-2018, 11:34 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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The wall lamp beside Praters window is described here:

"...and within a yard or two to the entrance to the court is a wall lamp, the light from which is thrown nearly on to the passage."
Morning Post, 10 Nov.

This is one of the lamps seen in the photo, and likely the one referred to by Prater.
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  #135  
Old 06-23-2018, 05:37 PM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Originally Posted by packers stem View Post
And still .....
Nobody has asked who 'Julia' was
She was said to have stayed a number of nights with Kelly and according to M Lewis she was seen with Kelly on the Thursday night .
Lewis must surely have been questioned by police over the weekend once his press statements appeared you'd think so did they not look for Julia ?
Times 12 Nov
"A woman, who is known by the name of Julia and who was in the habit of continually visiting Kelly's room, states she knew that she had two cotton shirts there."

Harvey left two cotton shirts (amongst other garments) with Kelly, and visited Mary as much as anyone, apparently, including staying a couple of nights. She also said to papers that she saw Kelly last at about 22:30 on Thursday night, although she also said 19:30, and stuck with this time at the inquest.
Against that is Julia Venturney who lived opposite so may have known all Mary's business. She may have been the Julia who stayed with her (had words with her husband?); Barnett mentions both Julia and Mrs Harvey staying in his Penny Illustrated Press interview, although in court he only mentions one prostitute staying.

Debs earlier mentioned the denizens of Millers Court possibly wearing each others clothes to confuse the police - perhaps they used the same trick with their names?
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  #136  
Old 06-24-2018, 01:51 AM
packers stem packers stem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Seriously, I have to wonder why you are making this so difficult.
The street door was not used by anyone, and certainly not Kelly, who lived at the back. All the street door did was give access to the common area within the house, it was now part of the shed where the barrows were kept - that's why it was locked.




Kelly can't live at the front if her door is opposite No.2 - for goodness sake's :-)

You've already been made aware that the couple who lived above Kelly slept through the whole thing.
A 'couple' is not Prater.
I don't know why you're struggling with this but I'll try to explain for you .
By mentioning the part about the latchkey and the closed door ,I was merely trying to point out to you that the report you are relying on so greatly is ....

Clearly in error on that score and therefore may be in error on other counts .

Nobody is suggesting that Kelly could use the front door for crying out loud

We know full well where the door to Kelly's room was .The writer of the telegraph report was mistaken .I do hope you can see that now
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  #137  
Old 06-24-2018, 01:54 AM
packers stem packers stem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
Times 12 Nov
"A woman, who is known by the name of Julia and who was in the habit of continually visiting Kelly's room, states she knew that she had two cotton shirts there."

Harvey left two cotton shirts (amongst other garments) with Kelly, and visited Mary as much as anyone, apparently, including staying a couple of nights. She also said to papers that she saw Kelly last at about 22:30 on Thursday night, although she also said 19:30, and stuck with this time at the inquest.
Against that is Julia Venturney who lived opposite so may have known all Mary's business. She may have been the Julia who stayed with her (had words with her husband?); Barnett mentions both Julia and Mrs Harvey staying in his Penny Illustrated Press interview, although in court he only mentions one prostitute staying.

Debs earlier mentioned the denizens of Millers Court possibly wearing each others clothes to confuse the police - perhaps they used the same trick with their names?
Yep , it's a bit of a muddle but Julia Venturney was tucked up in bed by 8.30
Maria Harvey didn't see Kelly after she left her room so we've a different Julia seen with Kelly and Dan
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  #138  
Old 06-24-2018, 02:05 AM
packers stem packers stem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Here's a description of the property, which includes the shed.

"....The ground floor of the house to the right of this court is used as a store, with a gate entrance, and the upper floors are let off in tenements, as is the case also with M'Carthy's house."
Morning Post, 10 Nov.

This "store, with a gate entrance" is the shed.

Prater said:
" I live at 20 Room, in Miller's-court, above the shed. Deceased occupied a room below."
Daily Telegraph, 13 Nov.

Kelly occupied "a" room below, not "thee" room below.
"Thee" room below was the shed!
The whole building ,I'm sure , was described as "the shed" , using the one entrance door .
Fact is Prater occupied one of the seven rooms above the shed .
Her room happened to be directly over that of Kelly .
It's of very little importance in the grand scheme of things , I see no reason not to go with the official inquest transcript on this , you will choose whichever route suits you best
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  #139  
Old 06-24-2018, 03:28 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by packers stem View Post
Yep , it's a bit of a muddle but Julia Venturney was tucked up in bed by 8.30
Maria Harvey didn't see Kelly after she left her room so we've a different Julia seen with Kelly and Dan
Not quite...the early papers are full of reports of Harvey saying she last saw Mary at 19:30 in her room but also others that say she last saw her at 22:30 in Commercial Street (as did another unnamed woman). They can't both be right. Harvey seems to have settled for the earlier sighting being the last, according to her inquest evidence and police statement, saying she left after Joe Barnett arrived. But there is also Lizzie Allbrook who claimed in the press that *she* was the woman in Mary's room when Joe arrived. Joe only said there was a female with him and Mary. Is it possible both Maria and Lizzie were there initially, Maria leaving almost immediately (leaving little impression) and Lizzie a bit later, just before Joe?
Julia V does indeed say she went to bed at about 8pm (about the time Joe, Maria and/or Lizzie left no.13) and for what it's worth says her last sighting of Mary was Thursday morning.

Does Barnett specify which brother met Mary Thursday night? I seem to recall he had more than one brother. The Star report doesn't give a name, just saying "He knew nothing about her proceedings since he left her, except that his brother met her on the Thursday evening and spoke to her". Are there any others?

Also, could the reported 10:30 am sighting in the pub simply be a press confusion with the 10:30 pm sighting in the pub the night before?
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  #140  
Old 06-24-2018, 04:26 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by packers stem View Post
The writer of the telegraph report was mistaken .I do hope you can see that now
Reporters don't conjure things like "I live in the first floor front room... above the shed" out of thin air, neither do they mis-hear them.
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