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  #1601  
Old 06-23-2018, 01:42 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Or,

Couldnít it just be the case that he used Cross as his day to day name but heíd been told that he must use his birth name on paper when filling out officil forms?
To someone with limited interaction with bureaucracy an Inquest was a purely word of mouth thing and so Cross might have been his natural choice?
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  #1602  
Old 06-23-2018, 03:10 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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This is the problem as far as I'm concerned, Gary.

I'd have expected the real ripper, if ever proposed as a suspect on more than a gut feeling and a shitload of confirmation bias [so not just because he was one of the men who found a victim; or one of the men who gave evidence as a witness; or one of the men who lived in the area and was a bit 'dodgy'; or worse, someone who doesn't appear remotely dodgy and could therefore have been a cunning psychopath ], to leap off the page and grab us all by the throat, with no need for any spin, wrestling or special pleading.

If 99% of us are 99% underwhelmed by a suspect, how likely is it that the two or three theorists who believe they've got him, will be right, let alone be able to produce the kind of evidence that would satisfy a majority?

If they think they know Jack, they probably don't know Jack.

Love,

Caz
X
Hi Caz,

Why so?

The Ripper existed, and we can be reasonably confident that he left a record of his existence that is available to us today. But why should that record be so overwhelmingly damning that if presented it would convince everyone?

Take my POI Thomas Fogarty. He was Pearly Poll's husband, spent most of his life in the East End where he lived among prostitutes and in doss houses. He was described as a 'vicious blind beggar' after he assaulted a young girl on the Commercial Road. He had numerous convictions for theft, assault and criminal damage.

Although blind, he was occasionally described as a wood carver, an occupation requiring the use of sharp implements, which a homeless man would have presumably carried on his person.

Shortly after his marriage to Poll, she was admitted to the ST Geo E infirmary suffering from syphilis. After she died in 1895, Fogarty spent increasingly more time in the ST Geo E workhouse/infirmary, ultimately being diagnosed with 'mania' and sent to Claybury Asylum in Essex. After five years there he was transferred to the East Sussex County Asylum, Hellingly in early 1907. When he first arrived at Hellingly he was described as being 'excitable' and interfering with other patients, but he gradually became more apathetic and his physical health deteriorated. He died at Hellingly six months after arriving there.

That's the basic bio, there's a fair bit more on the Thomas Foggerty thread at How's gaff.
http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread....ogarty&page=40

I'm sure everyone is aware of how problematic a witness Pearly Poll was. Tom Wescott covers her performance during the Tabram investigation and inquest in detail in The Bank Holiday Murders. The impression I got when reading the book was that Tom believed Poll was an agent of a grand conspiracy involving the 'Lords of Spitalfields', William Thick and other more shadowy figures. That never sat well with me and given the binary choice between Poll being that kind of agent or a ditzy, alcoholic tart, I'd plump for the ditz. But if there's a third option, that she was coerced into leading the police astray by a violent partner, that would seem equally plausible, if not more so.

One last thing. It was reported that on the morning of Annie Chapman's death a blind man of 'ungovernable temper' carried out a vicious daylight knife attack on his female guide near Spitalfields Market. He was eventually overpowered and disarmed by the crowd and his victim was taken first to Commercial Street Police station where she was seen by the police surgeon and then to the London Hospital. The story was covered by a few papers, but the details, including the names of the attacker and his victim have not yet been discovered. There may have been more than one vicious blind beggar in the East End at the time, but not too many I wouldn't have thought.

Even if we could show Fogarty committed the attack, the evidence for his having murdered Tabram wouldn't be overwhelming. But if I was investigating the case at the time and had all this info at my disposal, I'd pull him in for questioning tout suite.

Edit: I forgot to mention that between his early prison terms and winding up blind in NE Passage Foggy (as I like to call him) was in the army. Now, what's the name of the sharp thing soldiers stick on the end of their rifles? Ah, yes, that's it - a bayonet...

Last edited by MrBarnett : 06-23-2018 at 03:39 AM.
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  #1603  
Old 06-23-2018, 03:20 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Or,

Couldnít it just be the case that he used Cross as his day to day name but heíd been told that he must use his birth name on paper when filling out officil forms?
To someone with limited interaction with bureaucracy an Inquest was a purely word of mouth thing and so Cross might have been his natural choice?
In that case, what name would have been used when registering his kids at school? The register would have been filled out by the school and if they were called Lechmere at school and Cross at home that would be a bit odd.
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  #1604  
Old 06-23-2018, 04:05 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
Hi Caz,

Why so?

The Ripper existed, and we can be reasonably confident that he left a record of his existence that is available to us today. But why should that record be so overwhelmingly damning that if presented it would convince everyone?

Take my POI Thomas Fogarty. He was Pearly Poll's husband, spent most of his life in the East End where he lived among prostitutes and in doss houses. He was described as a 'vicious blind beggar' after he assaulted a young girl on the Commercial Road. He had numerous convictions for theft, assault and criminal damage.

Although blind, he was occasionally described as a wood carver, an occupation requiring the use of sharp implements, which a homeless man would have presumably carried on his person.

Shortly after his marriage to Poll, she was admitted to the ST Geo E infirmary suffering from syphilis. After she died in 1895, Fogarty spent increasingly more time in the ST Geo E workhouse/infirmary, ultimately being diagnosed with 'mania' and sent to Claybury Asylum in Essex. After five years there he was transferred to the East Sussex County Asylum, Hellingly in early 1907. When he first arrived at Hellingly he was described as being 'excitable' and interfering with other patients, but he gradually became more apathetic and his physical health deteriorated. He died at Hellingly six months after arriving there.

That's the basic bio, there's a fair bit more on the Thomas Foggerty thread at How's gaff.
http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread....ogarty&page=40

I'm sure everyone is aware of how problematic a witness Pearly Poll was. Tom Wescott covers her performance during the Tabram investigation and inquest in detail in The Bank Holiday Murders. The impression I got when reading the book was that Tom believed Poll was an agent of a grand conspiracy involving the 'Lords of Spitalfields', William Thick and other more shadowy figures. That never sat well with me and given the binary choice between Poll being that kind of agent or a ditzy, alcoholic tart, I'd plump for the ditz. But if there's a third option, that she was coerced into leading the police astray by a violent partner, that would seem equally plausible, if not more so.

One last thing. It was reported that on the morning of Annie Chapman's death a blind man of 'ungovernable temper' carried out a vicious daylight knife attack on his female guide near Spitalfields Market. He was eventually overpowered and disarmed by the crowd and his victim was taken first to Commercial Street Police station where she was seen by the police surgeon and then to the London Hospital. The story was covered by a few papers, but the details, including the names of the attacker and his victim have not yet been discovered. There may have been more than one vicious blind beggar in the East End at the time, but not too many I wouldn't have thought.

Even if we could show Fogarty committed the attack, the evidence for his having murdered Tabram wouldn't be overwhelming. But if I was investigating the case at the time and had all this info at my disposal, I'd pull him in for questioning tout suite.

Edit: I forgot to mention that between his early prison terms and winding up blind in NE Passage Foggy (as I like to call him) was in the army. Now, what's the name of the sharp thing soldiers stick on the end of their rifles? Ah, yes, that's it - a bayonet...
Interesting post gary.
So many intriguing characters surround this case!
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  #1605  
Old 06-23-2018, 04:34 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Interesting post gary.
So many intriguing characters surround this case!
I agree, Abbey. And for me fleshing them out is a more satisfying pursuit than endlessly arguing the toss over the same old differences of opinion.

Going off at a tangent, it's just occurred to me while composing this is that I have photos of Foggy, Billy Maher and Stephen Maywood. None of the Tomkins brothers themselves, but one of a son of Robert Tomkins. And of course, there's the one of CAL in later life posing in his back garden. So many of the people we are concerned with are little more than names. Simple soul that I am, a picture paints a million words for me.

Maywood is an interesting character, first identified as living at 1, Breezers Hill by Neil Shelden. Any mention of BH acts like a magnet to me because my maternal grandmother was born there in 1896 (no. 3). It seems Maywood was there in 1887 when one of Charles Booth's researchers described him (unnamed) as a drover and suggested his house was a brothel. His main occupation was a horse/cattle dealer, though later in life he came into money and bought a succession of farms, a number of which mysteriously burned down.
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  #1606  
Old 06-23-2018, 05:33 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
Although blind, he was occasionally described as a wood carver, an occupation requiring the use of sharp implements, which a homeless man would have presumably carried on his person.
Interesting...if he was the Ripper, it explains how he managed to operate in such low light conditions.
Also, didn't someone suggsst that Mary Kelly's thighs could have been strippee by a woodworking tool called a draw-knife? It's all making sense now.
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  #1607  
Old 06-23-2018, 06:01 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
Interesting...if he was the Ripper, it explains how he managed to operate in such low light conditions.
Also, didn't someone suggsst that Mary Kelly's thighs could have been strippee by a woodworking tool called a draw-knife? It's all making sense now.
Hi Joshua,

Do I detect a note of scepticism in your response?

I've never considered Fogarty as the Ripper, but I think he warrants consideration as a possible killer of Tabram. I mean, how many vicious, mentally unstable individuals do we know who married the last person to see a WM victim alive? A person who tried to finger a seemingly innocent man for the crime?


Gary

Last edited by MrBarnett : 06-23-2018 at 06:03 AM.
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  #1608  
Old 06-23-2018, 06:50 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
Do I detect a note of scepticism in your response?
Actually, no! Apologies if it came across that way. He seems as good a suspect as any, especially as you say for the Tabram murder.
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  #1609  
Old 06-23-2018, 07:01 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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Iím still not sure how if behooved the Ripper to give the police his first name, workplace, and home address but lie about his surname?
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  #1610  
Old 06-23-2018, 07:33 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
In that case, what name would have been used when registering his kids at school? The register would have been filled out by the school and if they were called Lechmere at school and Cross at home that would be a bit odd.
Iím assuming that this is hypothetical Gary? Or do we know how he registered his children?

If we donít know (and I genuinely donít) maybe he registered them as Cross? My only thinking on this is that maybe he didnít see registering his children at school as something legally binding?

I accept your point though of course. I donít have a real answer.
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