Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Witnesses: Kennedy and Lewis - by Sam Flynn 29 minutes ago.
General Suspect Discussion: Most Ridiculous Theory - by Harry D 34 minutes ago.
Witnesses: Kennedy and Lewis - by Trevor Marriott 52 minutes ago.
General Suspect Discussion: Most Ridiculous Theory - by Fantomas 2 hours ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by Fisherman 2 hours ago.
Witnesses: Kennedy and Lewis - by Sam Flynn 2 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Witnesses: Kennedy and Lewis - (27 posts)
Mary Jane Kelly: Did Mary Kelly meet the Bethnal Green Botherer? - (3 posts)
General Suspect Discussion: Most Ridiculous Theory - (2 posts)
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - (2 posts)
Non-Fiction: Jack and the Thames Torso Murders: A New Ripper? - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Witnesses

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #21  
Old 06-21-2018, 10:38 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: South london
Posts: 4,435
Default

Hi Gary,
Yes it could be?

The other examples are of course interesting, but the same happens in Bucks Row.

Another account, would have settled if it was withheld or not .

And even if it was, it could have been at the request of the coroner rather than at the request of that Mr Cross.

We have no way of knowing of course.

A great find, but ultimately it tantises and does not fulfill hopes.

If it had confirmed him as the same man, i suggest that the "name issue" would have had considerable more debate over the last 6 or so months than it has.

Cheers


Steve






Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
Hi Steve,

It goes without saying that the absence of an address for the Pickfords man need not be significant. But it could be. And I find the fact that every other person mentioned in the report has an address quoted intriguing. No more than that.



From the Islington Gazette Dec 29th, 1876

FATAL ACCIDENT

An inquiry was held on Wednesday, at the Coroner's Court, touching the death of Walter Williams, aged four years, who was run over by a Pickford's van.

Walter Williams, of 36, Cloudesley-road , a jeweler, and father of the deceased, said on Thursday last he was told that his boy was run over and killed. He made inquiries, and he had reason to blame the driver, believing he had not exercised proper care.

George Porter, a traveler, said on Thursday, at about four o-clock in the afternoon, he was outside his brother's shop, 3, Elizabeth-terrace when he witnessed the accident. He saw a Pickford's van going towards Liverpool-road, and he saw deceased and another child about to cross the road. The driver called out, and the witness then saw deceased reel against the near side shaft of the van about two feet from the pavement. The driver tried to pull up but the wheels went over deceased.

Henrietta Owen, of 100, Aldenham-street she was in Elizabeth-terrace on the day in question, and saw the child run over. The van was going slowly. One child drew back, but deceased was caught by the wheel.

Dr. Hindhaugh, of Barnesbury-road, deposed that deceased was brought to his surgery in a dying state. The cause of death was internal injuries and facture of an arm.

William Warner, of 25, Henry-street, deposed to seeing the accident, and said he heard the driver shout, but the horse was then on the child.

Charles Cross, carman to Pickford and Co., (blank) said he was crossing with his van from Copenhagen-street to Elizabeth-street, when two children seemed to come from behind a trap that was standing on the off-side, all in an instant, running against his horses. He tried to pull up, but found it was impossible.

The jury expressed the opinion that the driver was not to blame, and they returned a verdict of "Accidental death."
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-21-2018, 10:42 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Romford
Posts: 2,378
Default

Fish,

Midsummer is also significant to ageing hippies. By rights I should have been dancing naked at Stonehenge as the sun rose this morning.

I'll consider your post carefully and respond honestly.

Gary
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-21-2018, 10:53 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Romford
Posts: 2,378
Default

Steve,

My memory's not what it was (actually I can't remember if it ever was), but I'm sure I found a third report in the Pall Mall Gazette or somewhere. It was much briefer, though, and certainly didn't give Cross's address.

Gary
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-21-2018, 11:04 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: South london
Posts: 4,435
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
Steve,

My memory's not what it was (actually I can't remember if it ever was), but I'm sure I found a third report in the Pall Mall Gazette or somewhere. It was much briefer, though, and certainly didn't give Cross's address.

Gary
Wasn't aware of the that Gary, but if its brief, we need a fuller one, which is probably unlikely given its a local traffic accident.

Its a shame because an address would either confirm or not the ID.


I think the uncertainty os the reason its not been pushed much at present.



Steve
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-21-2018, 12:48 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: The West Midlands
Posts: 2,899
Default

Hi Steve and Gary,

Thanks for all the info and research.

It does appear from witnesses to have been a tragic accident. Its just rather sad the lengths that some will go to to bolster their case against CL. I wonder if any other ‘suspect’ has had so strenuous an effort to prove his guilt.

Ok Gareth I’m guessing that you can name a certain Liverpool Cotton Merchant but, apart from him.
__________________
Regards

Herlock






"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-21-2018, 01:09 PM
Busy Beaver Busy Beaver is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: West Lothian
Posts: 136
Default

If Charles was using the name Cross, he wouldn't be hiding from anyone, as his stepfather, Mr Cross was a Policeman. And to give his name as Cross when he found, Mary-Anne (Polly) Nichols would imply to me that he was a good citizen who showed concern for something not quite right in the street he was walking down and therefore also showing he had a respect for the law and what was the right thing to do.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-22-2018, 01:09 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Romford
Posts: 2,378
Unhappy

Hi Fish,

You ask:

Gary, what do you think about the possibility - could he have used an alias throughout, to keep an escape route open? If he was the killer?


Well, yes, of course he could have conceived the idea of using an alias as soon as his murderous urges started to surface (assuming they ever did), but I question the value of an alias that is given alongside other information that would identify him, such as his home address and place of work. Aliases are normally used to prevent a person being tracked down by the authorities or to conceal previous criminal convictions. In the two examples we have -1876 and 1888- the name Cross wasn't being used in either of those ways, was it? But perhaps he saw the name Cross as a sort of psychological shield, or a pair of psychological rubber gloves so to speak, used to distance himself - the hard working family man - from the predator. And as you say, should the use of the name Cross be questioned he could always demonstrate that it was not entirely fictitious.

It did occur to me at one time that perhaps there were some who might have had reason to suspect a man named Lechmere of dubious activity and his use of Cross was to prevent them making the connection between the man they suspected and the one they might read about in their newspaper. But having done a bit of research into Lechmere's mother's* background I'm increasingly of the opinion that it was the name Lechmere itself that was being protected from bad publicity.

Whatever, there's no getting away from the fact that it's odd that the Lechmere name does not appear in the records of the Nichols case or (if it was indeed him) the 1876 incident.

Gary



*I can't let this opportunity pass without quoting (not for the first time) these wonderful lines from the classic movie Kind Hearts and Coronets:

'Did poor Mama's silly dreaming plant in my brain some seed, which was afterwards to grow into the most sensational criminal endeavour of the century?'

Last edited by MrBarnett : 06-22-2018 at 01:11 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06-22-2018, 01:20 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: South london
Posts: 4,435
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
Hi Fish,

You ask:

Gary, what do you think about the possibility - could he have used an alias throughout, to keep an escape route open? If he was the killer?


Well, yes, of course he could have conceived the idea of using an alias as soon as his murderous urges started to surface (assuming they ever did), but I question the value of an alias that is given alongside other information that would identify him, such as his home address and place of work. Aliases are normally used to prevent a person being tracked down by the authorities or to conceal previous criminal convictions. In the two examples we have -1876 and 1888- the name Cross wasn't being used in either of those ways, was it? But perhaps he saw the name Cross as a sort of psychological shield, or a pair of psychological rubber gloves so to speak, used to distance himself - the hard working family man - from the predator. And as you say, should the use of the name Cross be questioned he could always demonstrate that it was not entirely fictitious.

It did occur to me at one time that perhaps there were some who might have had reason to suspect a man named Lechmere of dubious activity and his use of Cross was to prevent them making the connection between the man they suspected and the one they might read about in their newspaper. But having done a bit of research into Lechmere's mother's* background I'm increasingly of the opinion that it was the name Lechmere itself that was being protected from bad publicity.

Whatever, there's no getting away from the fact that it's odd that the Lechmere name does not appear in the records of the Nichols case or (if it was indeed him) the 1876 incident.

Gary



*I can't let this opportunity pass without quoting (not for the first time) these wonderful lines from the classic movie Kind Hearts and Coronets:

'Did poor Mama's silly dreaming plant in my brain some seed, which was afterwards to grow into the most sensational criminal endeavour of the century?'

Gary

May i just say i think that is a very fair post.



Steve
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 06-22-2018, 01:43 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Romford
Posts: 2,378
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
Gary

May i just say i think that is a very fair post.



Steve
Thanks, Steve, I was worried my 'psychological rubber gloves' might attract a few chuckles.

As a narrative, the overbearing mother, possibly holding the purse strings and drumming a hatred of bad women into her son works a treat for me. What little evidence there is certainly complements that view.

I await Fish's post-Equinox response with bated breath.

Last edited by MrBarnett : 06-22-2018 at 01:46 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 06-22-2018, 02:22 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Romford
Posts: 2,378
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Beaver View Post
If Charles was using the name Cross, he wouldn't be hiding from anyone, as his stepfather, Mr Cross was a Policeman. And to give his name as Cross when he found, Mary-Anne (Polly) Nichols would imply to me that he was a good citizen who showed concern for something not quite right in the street he was walking down and therefore also showing he had a respect for the law and what was the right thing to do.
Hi BB,

Cross is a fairly common name, though (unlike Lechmere), and CAL's stepfather had been dead for almost 20 years.

If he was a good citizen who liked things to be right and proper, wouldn't he have revealed both his names to the police/coroner? Surely, he would have known that that was the 'right thing to do'?

Gary
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.