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  #101  
Old 06-20-2018, 02:08 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Originally Posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
There is an article in a recent edition of Ripperologist by Debra where a sketch of Elizabeth was compared to a sketch of Mary. Obviously, the sketches are no means definitive, and they could be a million miles out from what they really looked like, but it is very interesting none the less. Also, I am sure there is an article somewhere were one the women mentions about wearing each other's clothes for the purpose,I think of confusing the Police.
I didn't really compare the two pictures directly Darryl but I did find that the two pictures, (by accident or design) and the lives of these two women were very similar.
We know that Catherine Picket knocked at MJK's door to borrow her shawl that morning, had she done that a few times before and been seen in the neighbourhood wearing it?
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  #102  
Old 06-20-2018, 02:14 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
The description is probably the biggest problem with Lewis' sighting, for me. It contrasts markedly with Liz Prater's impression of Mary as "tall and pretty, and as fair as a lily". And Maxwell actually described her as "a pleasant little woman, rather stout, fair complexion and rather pale". Not a million miles away, but not dark, so not identical. And the"little" might just be a turn of phrase rather than a physical attribute - Mrs Phoenix said she was 5'7".

Incidentally, Mrs Prater had been separated from her husband for 5 years, the same length of time that Lewis claimed to have known Mary. And Mrs Maxwell said she had known Mary about 4 months, the same length of time I think that Mrs Prater had been living in the court. By her own admission, Prater had been drinking heavily the night before, and got up as soon as the pubs opened to get herself another drink.... .could she have had the horrors of drink upon her?
I wondered about Prater too, Josh but it was pointed out to me that both Prater and Maxwell gave evidence at the inquest, giving Maxwell the opportunity to see Prater ad realise her mistake, perhaps?

Was it Mrs Phoenix that also mentioned MJK's buck/protruding/false/wooden front teeth and a speech impediment? And a two year old child?
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  #103  
Old 06-20-2018, 02:41 PM
packers stem packers stem is offline
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Nick, I thought about that too but there are reports that say that Joseph Barnett was also known as 'Danny' and worked at Billinsgate on occassion and also as an orange seller. Do you think those reports came as a direct result of Lewis identifying MJK's other half as 'Dan', rather than Joseph?
I've certainly seen reports where Kelly 'lived with a man called Danny' I think then followed by 'until recently ' which on its own always suggested that Lewis knew both brothers but got their names mixed up but taking the Thursday night sighting into account and accepting its accuracy, for the sake of argument ,then it is possible that those other accounts have been second or third hand newspaper accounts which have got a little mixed up between the sighting of Dan with Kelly and Kelly's partner being called Dan .
Love to know why Dan was meant to meet Kelly on the Thursday night and that Joe knew in advance of the meeting as if memory serves he said that Dan was going to meet her and not that he had heard afterwards that he met her
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  #104  
Old 06-20-2018, 03:01 PM
packers stem packers stem is offline
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Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
The description is probably the biggest problem with Lewis' sighting, for me. It contrasts markedly with Liz Prater's impression of Mary as "tall and pretty, and as fair as a lily". And Maxwell actually described her as "a pleasant little woman, rather stout, fair complexion and rather pale". Not a million miles away, but not dark, so not identical. And the"little" might just be a turn of phrase rather than a physical attribute - Mrs Phoenix said she was 5'7".

Incidentally, Mrs Prater had been separated from her husband for 5 years, the same length of time that Lewis claimed to have known Mary. And Mrs Maxwell said she had known Mary about 4 months, the same length of time I think that Mrs Prater had been living in the court. By her own admission, Prater had been drinking heavily the night before, and got up as soon as the pubs opened to get herself another drink.... .could she have had the horrors of drink upon her?
The Evening news of the 10th

INTERVIEW WITH MRS. MAPWELL (sic)
Mrs. Caroline Mapwell, of 14 Dorset street, the wife of a night watchman at Commercial Chambers, a common lodging house able to shelter 244 persons, and which is opposite the scene of the murder, said: "I have known the murdered woman well for the past six months. This (Friday) morning, as near as possible about half past eight, I saw Mary Jane (the murdered woman) standing outside the court. I said, "What brings you out so early, Mary Jane," and she answered, "I feel very queer. I cannot sleep. I have the horrors of the drink on me, as I have been drinking this last day or two." I said, "Well, I pity you, " and passed on. I then went to Bishopsgate; and on my return, just after nine o'clock, I saw Mary Jane talking to a man at the end of the street. Who he was I do not know. He was a short, stout man, about fifty years of age. I did not notice what he had on, but I saw that he wore a kind of plaid coat. I then went indoors to go to bed, as I had been on duty all night. Mary Jane (I only know her by that name) was a pleasant little woman, rather stout, fair complexion, and rather pale. I should say her age was be about 23. I had no idea she was an unfortunate, for I never saw her with any one, nor have I ever seen her drunk. She was a very quiet young woman, and had been in the neighbourhood about two years. She spoke with a kind of impediment. She belonged, I think, to Limerick, and had evidently been well connected

She knew her as 'Mary Jane ' and that she was from Limerick .
She's not the only one who said they just knew her by the name 'Mary Jane' I'm sure
I think Bowyer said he didn't know her by the name 'kelly' so obviously he knew her by first names only
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  #105  
Old 06-20-2018, 03:03 PM
GUT GUT is offline
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Originally Posted by packers stem View Post
The Evening news of the 10th

INTERVIEW WITH MRS. MAPWELL (sic)
Mrs. Caroline Mapwell, of 14 Dorset street, the wife of a night watchman at Commercial Chambers, a common lodging house able to shelter 244 persons, and which is opposite the scene of the murder, said: "I have known the murdered woman well for the past six months. This (Friday) morning, as near as possible about half past eight, I saw Mary Jane (the murdered woman) standing outside the court. I said, "What brings you out so early, Mary Jane," and she answered, "I feel very queer. I cannot sleep. I have the horrors of the drink on me, as I have been drinking this last day or two." I said, "Well, I pity you, " and passed on. I then went to Bishopsgate; and on my return, just after nine o'clock, I saw Mary Jane talking to a man at the end of the street. Who he was I do not know. He was a short, stout man, about fifty years of age. I did not notice what he had on, but I saw that he wore a kind of plaid coat. I then went indoors to go to bed, as I had been on duty all night. Mary Jane (I only know her by that name) was a pleasant little woman, rather stout, fair complexion, and rather pale. I should say her age was be about 23. I had no idea she was an unfortunate, for I never saw her with any one, nor have I ever seen her drunk. She was a very quiet young woman, and had been in the neighbourhood about two years. She spoke with a kind of impediment. She belonged, I think, to Limerick, and had evidently been well connected

She knew her as 'Mary Jane ' and that she was from Limerick .
She's not the only one who said they just knew her by the name 'Mary Jane' I'm sure
I think Bowyer said he didn't know her by the name 'kelly' so obviously he knew her by first names only
Or Bower knew her as Barnett
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  #106  
Old 06-20-2018, 03:08 PM
packers stem packers stem is offline
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Or Bower knew her as Barnett
Doubtful seeing as McCarthy initially thought that she lived with a man called 'kelly'

Anyhow
Bit more from Maxwell , same newspaper
" I didn't know then that she had separated from the man she had been living with, and I thought he had been "paying" her. I then went out in the direction of Bishopsgate to do some errands, and on my return I saw Kelly standing outside the public house, talking to a man. That was the last I saw of her.
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  #107  
Old 06-21-2018, 01:42 AM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
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Hi Debra,
I did not intend to paint a squeaky clean picture of McCarthy.
He would have known that because of the conditions in that area, his residents would have had to rely on prostitution to survive, but that does not imply that he used his rents as a brothel.
The Pitch and toss was a illegal game, and I would say McCarthy would have never allowed that to be played in the court, the rear window of his shop looked over the court, and by his admission he could see the comings and goings.
He would have got in trouble for allowing this illegal game to take part about his premises.
We can only guess on the personalities of Mr and Mrs McCarthy. He appears to have been a man that stood no nonsense, and I would say Mrs M, may have had a sympathetic attitude to the women, which is why her husband took a lenient view with Mary, he knew of the local dangers, and at least during this period,may have allowed the owed rent to increase.
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  #108  
Old 06-21-2018, 02:08 AM
packers stem packers stem is offline
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Originally Posted by richardnunweek View Post
Hi Debra,
I did not intend to paint a squeaky clean picture of McCarthy.
He would have known that because of the conditions in that area, his residents would have had to rely on prostitution to survive, but that does not imply that he used his rents as a brothel.
The Pitch and toss was a illegal game, and I would say McCarthy would have never allowed that to be played in the court, the rear window of his shop looked over the court, and by his admission he could see the comings and goings.
He would have got in trouble for allowing this illegal game to take part about his premises.
We can only guess on the personalities of Mr and Mrs McCarthy. He appears to have been a man that stood no nonsense, and I would say Mrs M, may have had a sympathetic attitude to the women, which is why her husband took a lenient view with Mary, he knew of the local dangers, and at least during this period,may have allowed the owed rent to increase.
Regards Richard.
From.the daily news of the 10th

. "Is it not astounding that he could have gone in and out without being observed by somebody on the court?" was a question put to an intelligent labouring man, a denizen of the neighbourhood. "Not a bit," was the reply, "and you would understand it if you knew the place and the kind of people. Men go in and out there, and nobody thinks anything about them or takes notice of 'em. It's everybody for themselves there."

There are no grounds for believing that McCarthy would care one iota about an illegal game and Maurice Lewis can not be dismissed purely on a personal view of Mr and Mrs McCarthy .
If he admitted he was playing it there then he almost certainly was as if it was that serious then why admit it in a newspaper .
It is , in fact , just stronger confirmation of the truth of the report
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  #109  
Old 06-21-2018, 02:27 AM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
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Hi,
I agree, to actually admit playing a illegal game, it has the hallmarks of truth.
It still surprises me that McCarthy would allow any open illegal practise on his premises.
He appears to have been not a guy who stood any nonsense .
As for comings and goings ,, yes life was so different then, and men would go in and out the court, but that does not imply open prostitution.
McCarthy seemed to be the kind of person that kept in with the police and I am sure would not allow men waiting in line for servicing , with pimps in attendance..
Regards Richard.
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  #110  
Old 06-21-2018, 03:03 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Didn't McCarthy have a brush with the Law in connection with illegal prize-fighting?
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