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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

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  #31  
Old 06-17-2018, 01:00 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Thanks for the explanation, John. The names being taken from the electoral registers makes sense when we find jurors have addresses in common.
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  #32  
Old 06-17-2018, 12:32 PM
Scott Nelson Scott Nelson is offline
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And they had to be able to sign their names or they wouldn't get a crown seal.
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  #33  
Old 06-17-2018, 02:47 PM
DJA DJA is offline
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...... or an elephant stamp.
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  #34  
Old 06-18-2018, 03:53 AM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Savage View Post
Hi Debs

I believe the jurors would have been summoned personally by the coroner's officer. He would probably have used the electoral register or possibly local council records of ratepayers.
At one time jurors were selected from the electoral roll numerically - a random number was chosen and the jury picked from that; e.g. if the number was 856, then every 856th person on the roll would be called up. (I suspect it's rather more sophisticated now).
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  #35  
Old 06-18-2018, 07:23 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Morning Advertiser (London)
3 September 1888

THE LISTS OF JURYMEN
Yesterday the lists of the names of those persons liable to serve as special and common jurymen in England and Wales during the year were exhibited on the doors of every church, chapel, and other public places of worship over England and Wales, where they can be inspected by every one, and where they will remain during the next two Sundays. Every person whose name appears in these lists will be liable to serve as a juryman except those who are over 60 years of age, and those among others who are exempt by reason of being peers, Members of Parliament, judges, clergymen, Roman Catholic priests, members of the bar, solicitors, officers of the Law Courts, coroners, doctors, the household servants of Her Majesty, the officers of the Post Office, Customs and Inland Revenue, Magistrates, and their staffs, and others. During the last week in this month the justices of the peace in every division in England and Wales will hold a special petty session for the purpose of correcting the lists, and of allowing any objection to serve which may be substantiated.
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  #36  
Old 06-19-2018, 05:09 AM
John Savage John Savage is offline
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Hi Joshua,

That's very interesting, thanks for posting.

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JOhn
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  #37  
Old 06-19-2018, 10:11 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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You're welcome. I'm not sure it shows how jurors were selected, only informed, but interesting none the less.

I did think it showed that they were selected parish by parish (I can't see them posting a list of every juror in England on every church door, they would be very long lists), but there's a puzzling bit of confusion over the Kelly inquest which seems to suggest the jurors were from two different parishes;

Daily News 13th Nov
"The jury having answered to their names, one of them said: I do not see why we should have the inquest thrown upon our shoulders, when the murder did not happen in our district, but in Whitechapel.

The Coroner's Officer (Mr. Hammond): It did not happen in Whitechapel.

The Coroner ( to the juror, severely): Do you think that we do not know what we are doing here, and that we do not know our own district ? The jury are summoned in the ordinary way, and they have no business to object. If they persist in their objection I shall know how to deal with them. Does any juror persist in objecting ?

The Juror: We are summoned for the Shoreditch district. This affair happened in Spitalfields.

The Coroner: It happened within my district.

Another Juryman: This is not my district. I come from Whitechapel, and Mr. Baxter is my coroner.

The Coroner: I am not going to discuss the subject with jurymen at all. If any juryman says he distinctly objects, let him say so. (After a pause): I may tell the jurymen that jurisdiction lies where the body lies, not where it was found, if there was doubt as to the district where the body was found.

The jury having made no further objection, they were duly sworn."

So some jurors were from Whitechapel and some from Shoreditch....
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  #38  
Old 06-19-2018, 02:14 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Nelson View Post
And they had to be able to sign their names or they wouldn't get a crown seal.
Sometimes they got a crown seal and didn't sign,
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  #39  
Old 06-19-2018, 02:20 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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This is probably a silly question but I'll ask anyway, -I was just wondering if jurymen for Coroner's courts were selected in the same way that criminal court jurymen were selected?
I was thinking about Albert Bachert and his serving on a Coroner's jury but he only seems to appear on the lodgers electoral register once (which surprised me given that he was so politically minded, canvasing for the Tory candidate in 84) and this was after being turned down for coroner's jury service at the Coles inquest where he apparently volunteered his services.
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Last edited by Debra A : 06-19-2018 at 02:31 PM.
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  #40  
Old 06-19-2018, 05:08 PM
DJA DJA is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
You're welcome. I'm not sure it shows how jurors were selected, only informed, but interesting none the less.

I did think it showed that they were selected parish by parish (I can't see them posting a list of every juror in England on every church door, they would be very long lists), but there's a puzzling bit of confusion over the Kelly inquest which seems to suggest the jurors were from two different parishes;

Daily News 13th Nov
"The jury having answered to their names, one of them said: I do not see why we should have the inquest thrown upon our shoulders, when the murder did not happen in our district, but in Whitechapel.

The Coroner's Officer (Mr. Hammond): It did not happen in Whitechapel.

The Coroner ( to the juror, severely): Do you think that we do not know what we are doing here, and that we do not know our own district ? The jury are summoned in the ordinary way, and they have no business to object. If they persist in their objection I shall know how to deal with them. Does any juror persist in objecting ?

The Juror: We are summoned for the Shoreditch district. This affair happened in Spitalfields.

The Coroner: It happened within my district.

Another Juryman: This is not my district. I come from Whitechapel, and Mr. Baxter is my coroner.

The Coroner: I am not going to discuss the subject with jurymen at all. If any juryman says he distinctly objects, let him say so. (After a pause): I may tell the jurymen that jurisdiction lies where the body lies, not where it was found, if there was doubt as to the district where the body was found.

The jury having made no further objection, they were duly sworn."

So some jurors were from Whitechapel and some from Shoreditch....
But none from Spitalfields where Mary was actually murdered.

Another coincidence ...... the Vestry Board.

St. Leonard,Shoreditch, Town Hall, Old St., E.C.
Clerk Enoch WALKER Medical Officer Henry Gawen SUTTON,md
Surveyor George Charles PERRETT Analyst Thomas STEVENSON,md,Guys
Hospital

Couple of very familiar names there in Sutton and Stevenson.
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Last edited by DJA : 06-19-2018 at 05:17 PM. Reason: Oops.
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