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  #71  
Old 06-19-2018, 05:19 AM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
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Hi,
I have asked this before many years ago, but as newcomers are in the group maybe they might know.?
I read either a book/or article in 1975, which uses this account of Mrs Maxwell's statement.
''Her eyes looked queer, as if suffering from a heavy cold''
I mentioned this to Colin Wilson in a communication .
I can find no account of that statement anywhere, but it must have been written, I remember it clearly, as I was travelling to Hove Greyhounds via train, and after reading this which I took with me,? I could not concentrate for the rest of the evening.
I have been told that D McCormack used the term ''All muffled up with a cold,'' but not the same as mine.
It would have major significance if Maxwell saw Kelly with cold at 8.15am the 9th, because it will be on par with Hutchinson stating Kelly asked for a handkerchief at 2,pm. which would give a pointer to both parties telling the truth.
Regards Richard.
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  #72  
Old 06-19-2018, 09:25 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
Right, so Jack killed Mary at say between nine and ten in the morning. The cry of Murder at around 4 in the morning, right smack in between the two Doctor's death estimates was entirely coincidental even though Sarah Lewis thought it came from the direction of Mary's room, and Elizabeth Prater thought it was somewhere in the court also. After all the cry was common though. Elizabeth Prater said, in most accounts, the cry was common from the street, not the court.
When Catherine Pickett went banging on Mary's door at 7 30 in the morning, she wasn't dead, just asleep or out and about, even though nobody saw her out and about at that time and if the knocking did wake Mary up, she then got dressed, went out and got herself some ale, drunk it, threw it up, ate some fish and potatoes, possibly had to cook the meal all in an hour with the horrors of drink on her. Whilst nobody saw her going out, probably buying the ale and throwing it back up. Speaking of nobody seeing her, nobody saw her bring a client back between nine and ten, or probably solicit him for that matter [ apart from possibly Mrs Maxwell, plaid coat man] on Dorset st at the closest, maybe even on Commercial rd even though it was probably busy around that time, including her landlord or his assistant who probably would have asked her for his weekly rent [ note weekly IE probably paid on the same day each week Friday, not Thursday night]. Nobody saw Mary from the court put her hand through the broken window either, though said window leads directly on to the court. And the killer was really in luck because nobody saw him leave Mary's room half an hour later in broad daylight. Lucky for him he changed his MO from being a night stalker killing undercover of darkness, where he could more likely, [and did] slip away during the night.
Speaking of darkness Abberlines perfectly plausible explanation of the remains of the ladies clothing in the grate being burnt to give the killer light must be wrong, after all, he really wouldn't need that light at ten in the morning. so why Mary burnt some clothing, [possibly Maria Harvey's] is anyone's guess.
As is why Mrs Maxwell was interviewed on the ninth, and yet because her testimony disagreed wholly with what the police thought, why the Police, who would surely have asked around didn't find anybody else to testify on the twelve to back the timing of her death [mid morning], three days later even though say, Maria Harvey, testified without really adding anything to when Mary was killed. Strange that.
Oh, and I almost forgot Maurice Lewis who saw Mary even later and in a pub drinking with people at that. The killer must have worked at the speed of light to get mary back to her room unseen and then cut her up and leave all within forty-five mins
Ps Apologies if I am wrong but I cannot find anywhere were Mary told Caroline that she was from Limerick. Only - I believe she was from Limerick, or I heard etc
PPS None of the above is beyond conjecture but, [to my mind] when you take it as a whole, it is difficult for me to believe that Mary was' killed mid-morning.
pretty much agree with all this. re the fire-stoking up a big fire, burning clothes-too tight a time frame for daylight morning murder IMHO.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #73  
Old 06-19-2018, 09:27 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
A quick perusal of the press seems to show that the specific cry heard by Prater came from the court (or the room below), but similar cries were common in the street, court or neighbourhood.

Times
The sound appeared to proceed from the court and near where witness was. She did not take much notice of it, however, as they were continually hearing cries of murder in the court.

Star
Being used to cries of alarm in that neighbourhood, I did not take much notice, but dropped off to sleep.

St James Gazette
She had often heard cries of murder near the court, and therefore she took no particular notice.

Morning Advertiser
Such a cry is not unusual, and I did not take any particular notice.

Echo
Where did the sound seem to come from? - Up the court, somewhere. I did not hear it a second time. I did not take any notice of it. Then I went to sleep.

ELA
Almost immediately she heard a faint cry of "Oh! Murder!" In the neighborhood it was a common thing to hear a cry of "Murder," so witness took no notice of it. The noise appeared to come from a room under her own.

Daily Telegraph
It seemed to proceed from the court.
Do you often hear cries of "Murder ?" - It is nothing unusual in the street. I did not take particular notice.

Daily News
You took no particular notice of it?-No, such a cry is nothing in the streets, Sir, and nobody takes any notice. The cry seemed to come from the court.

Interestingly, Sarah Lewis also heard the cry and gave the same reason as Liz Prater for ignoring it, mentioning in one report (Daily News) an earlier disturbance in the court.

Sarah Lewis
I heard a female voice shout "Murder!" It seemed like a young woman's voice. There was only one scream. I did not take any notice, especially as a short time before there had been a row in the court.
Hi Joshua
thanks for this. wasn't either praters or lewis inquest testimony that they heard the cry of murder-"Coming from the deceaseds room" ? or something very similar. as in they thought the cry came from marys room...not somewhere in the court, street etc.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #74  
Old 06-19-2018, 10:20 AM
rjpalmer rjpalmer is offline
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I wonder if any advocates of 'hands on' Ripperology have actually tried the field experiment by burning a large bundle of old cotton and wool clothing for 'purposes of light'? And did it actually produce any light or just a lot of smoke and smothering?
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  #75  
Old 06-19-2018, 10:30 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Hi Joshua
thanks for this. wasn't either praters or lewis inquest testimony that they heard the cry of murder-"Coming from the deceaseds room" ? or something very similar. as in they thought the cry came from marys room...not somewhere in the court, street etc.
It seems there's no press consensus on where Lewis thought the scream originated. Only a few give a location, and they all seem to be different! That said, there was only 7 or 8 feet between them all, so not varying wildly;

Daily Telegraph
I sat awake until nearly four, when I heard a female's voice shouting "Murder" loudly. It seemed like the voice of a young woman. It sounded at our door. There was only one scream.

ELA
A little before 4 o'clock she heard a female's voice scream out "Murder!" loudly, and witness thought that it came from the house opposite.

Morning Advertiser
A little before four I heard a female shouting "Murder!" once. It was loud, and there was only one shout. The cry was from where the shop is.
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  #76  
Old 06-19-2018, 10:56 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjpalmer View Post
I wonder if any advocates of 'hands on' Ripperology have actually tried the field experiment by burning a large bundle of old cotton and wool clothing for 'purposes of light'? And did it actually produce any light or just a lot of smoke and smothering?
Guilty!
It was a while ago, and actually only a small bundle, but I think I remember it producing quite a lot of light. The fire has to be well alight already or dumping it all on at once would smother it, but once all the moisture is driven off it flared up nicely.
The problem I found was that, confined in a fireplace, the flames only reach about knee high, which means they probably wouldn't be able to directly illuminate, say, a body lying on a bed (I didn't go so far as to obtain one of these). But with the firelight bouncing off the walls and ceiling (white in my case) even a small candle held above this height provided enough extra light to make the Ripper's dreadful deed possible. Maybe even without the candle.
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  #77  
Old 06-19-2018, 11:38 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
It seems there's no press consensus on where Lewis thought the scream originated. Only a few give a location, and they all seem to be different! That said, there was only 7 or 8 feet between them all, so not varying wildly;

Daily Telegraph
I sat awake until nearly four, when I heard a female's voice shouting "Murder" loudly. It seemed like the voice of a young woman. It sounded at our door. There was only one scream.

ELA
A little before 4 o'clock she heard a female's voice scream out "Murder!" loudly, and witness thought that it came from the house opposite.

Morning Advertiser
A little before four I heard a female shouting "Murder!" once. It was loud, and there was only one shout. The cry was from where the shop is.
Thanks JR
I could have swore I read that at least one of the women said she heard it coming specifically from marys room?!?
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #78  
Old 06-19-2018, 12:15 PM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Thanks JR
I could have swore I read that at least one of the women said she heard it coming specifically from marys room?!?
That would probably be from Lewis' inquest deposition - "the sound seemed to come from the direction of deceaseds room". Her police statement only says it "seemed to be not far away".

Praters statement says "I frequently hear such cries from the back of the lodging house where the windows look into Millers Court". Her deposition says "the noise seemed to come from close by - it is nothing uncommon to hear cries of murder so I took no notice"
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  #79  
Old 06-19-2018, 12:42 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

Do you know the source of the milk shop corroboration for Maxwell's story?
Hi Joshua.
It was reported in the Times, 12 Nov.
"On inquiries been made at the milk shop...."

I would imagine both police & press would have turned up there making inquries.
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  #80  
Old 06-19-2018, 12:46 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

Praters statement says "I frequently hear such cries from the back of the lodging house where the windows look into Millers Court". Her deposition says "the noise seemed to come from close by - it is nothing uncommon to hear cries of murder so I took no notice"
Given Prater occupied the front room (No.20) overlooking Dorset St. her guess that the scream came from the court must mean it seemed to come from behind her room.
Apparently there was a couple living directly upstairs above Kelly who slept through it all.
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