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  #1541  
Old 06-18-2018, 03:07 AM
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caz caz is offline
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Not so, I´m afraid. The story the carman told was confirmed to Mizen as he saw Neil up in Bucks Row - there WAS a PC in place, just as had been stated.

Following on, when Neil said that he was the finder of the body and that it was not true that two men had found it before him, Mizen had a reaffirmation of the carmans story.

Everything added up AS LONG AS NEIL STUCK TO HIS STORY.

Mizen must have been flummoxed, to say the least, by the developments that ensued. I think there is every chance that he will have asked himself where things did not add up, and that he may have weighed in the possibility that he himself could have in some way misheard or misunderstood the carmans words.

What I think he did was to then go to the inquest and state as honestly as he could what he thought had transpired, and I think he did so without nourishing any suspicion against Lechmere, something that was overall reflected by the rest of the participators too. None of them will have realized the explosive power built into the disagreement between Mizen and Lechmere. I have heard it stated that this suggestion is stupid and that anybody would realize that power, but the fact of the matter is that it was overlooked by generations of ripperologists and armchair detectives, and so I think it must be accepted that it was simply overlooked by the inquest too.
Two possibilities here, Fish, if Lechmere did lie to Mizen about another PC wanting him in Buck's Row.

One: Mizen saw no reason to suspect Cross of any wrongdoing, despite the fact that PC Neil had not seen the two men or sent them to fetch him. In this situation, Mizen alone knew how likely it was that he had misheard or misunderstood the message, or had not paid sufficient attention to what was said, and he had to give the carman the benefit of the doubt, leaving him in the clear.

Two: Mizen did suspect Cross when he realised he had been lied to, but didn't dare say so or make a fuss, because he had failed to ask a single question, take any details or search either man, so any opportunity to catch the killer red-handed, with the murder weapon still on him, before he went on to kill more women, was lost.

Which option do you favour?

Or are there more?

Love,

Caz
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  #1542  
Old 06-18-2018, 03:19 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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I have overall lost interest in "debating" with some of the people of this thread, and for very obvious reasons.

I now read from Herlock, who dabbles in the fine art of misrepresenting me on a daily basis, that I would have said that all Eastenders hated the police.

I have - of course, and as is so often the case when Herlock is involved - not said this at all. But in order to be able to attack me, Herlock needs to invent this falsehood.

What I said that there is absolutely no guarantee that the person who arrived after Lechmere did up at Browns would press the point to contact the police. And I said this because Herlock assured us all that this person WOULD press that point.

What I tried to do was to offer some necessary nuance, therefore. A contact with reality, if you will.

The Eastenders had a degree of distrust towards the police. It is an ascertained fact. And when this important point of mine is made to dissolve Herlocks misunderstanding or misleading, he says "Fisherman says that there is not a chance in hell that an Eastender would speak to the police!"

Are you never ashamed of yourself, Herlock, for doing this time and time again?

Or are you so entrenched in your efforts to tarnish me that you don´t even notice it?

It is an absolute shame for any sort of debate, and I am feeling embarrased to be on the same site. Please try and sober up and stop this malice, Herlock. It would do the debate a world of good if you could manage that.

If you are pondering some sort of retaliation post, kindly keep to the subject and explain to me where I have supposedly said what you claim I have said. It is simply not true, is it? Anyone who can read knows who is the misrepresenter.

I will keep an eye open for your answer, Herlock, just in case that you do not come clean - or avoid the point.
I think that the quoted post should be preserved for posterity because I would describe it as ‘Fish to a tee’. Only he could use misinterpretation to accuse another poster (me as Usual) of misinterpretation whilst adopted a ‘wounded’ tone.

I’m not going to bother trawling back through previous points but I’ll just reiterate my original point. It was simply that in electing to remain at the scene and to involve another witness (Paul) CL would have known that this scenario (one that was of his own making) would have in all likelihood have led to a confrontation with the police. And, as he might have been contaminated with Polly’s blood and he would have been in possession of the murder weapon then this confrontation with the police would likely have been a fatal one.



Disagree with that if you wish but does anyone see it as in any way dishonest or a misinterpretation of the facts?

In a previous post I also speculated on the possible outcomes for CL in approaching Paul. As i said, I haven’t trawled back, but I’m pretty certain that I said that Paul might have wanted to just walk on and not get involved. I thought it perhaps unlikely but I didn’t ignore it. My point was of course, which is apparent to anyone unblinkered, that CL could not have relied on Paul not suggesting the police (ie. that it was a risk too far.)

I’ll now allow others to judge. But I really am getting tired of the nasty, insulting comments. We can all see where they originate and why.

I accept criticism, I accept being disagreed with, I even accept being disliked. I also accept that I can get a little ‘full on’ in the heat of debate but I don’t constantly attempt to belittle others points of view. This all comes from an overarching obsession with being ‘the man that caught the ripper.’
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Last edited by Herlock Sholmes : 06-18-2018 at 03:30 AM.
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  #1543  
Old 06-18-2018, 03:24 AM
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This must be one of the very worst posts i have seen on casebook in a long time, all over the place, ignoring the OP that we cannot place Lechmere in the area of the murders at the time of the murders other than for Nichols.
Is the whole post simply constructed to avoid that issue?
I agree, Steve.

Even today, a reliable TOD is extremely hard to establish without recourse to supporting evidence of a non-scientific nature, such as CCTV and witness testimony, indicating the victim's movements and last known sightings and so on. At least the difficulty is acknowledged these days, while back in 1888 they were working largely in the dark and only thought they knew.

If Fish rejects all witness testimony that clashes with his preferred TOD for any of the victims, he's lost, starting with Nichols. He rejects Lechmere's testimony because he obviously needs him there at the time of attack, and it goes downhill from there, needing him to be with Chapman when she died, but not be late for work.

Love,

Caz
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  #1544  
Old 06-18-2018, 03:28 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Just another post before I leave again.

I notice Steve says that Lechmere´s mothers lodgings were not very close at all to Berner Street.

Gary wisely asks me to confirm that the lodgings were in Cable Street, and points out that this is not in line with a visit to his mother.

This is one of the matters where it seems nobody is listening to what I am saying. It was said in the docu that she lived in Cable Street, but I have corrected this since - a number of times, actually. But the Cable Street address, it seems, dies hard - if at all.

When Stride died, Lechmere´s mother did not live in Cable Street. Edward Stow found this out after the docu was made. She instead lived in 1 Mary Ann Street.

I hope it is close enough for you, Steve. But as you say, there were so many OTHERS living in these streets. Not that they all "found" Nichols alone, but anyway - surely they must dissolve Lechmere´s candidacy on the geographical point? As Herlock so neatly points out, it is simply "irrelevant" where she lived. It does not belong to the case, and plays no role when we look at it. We can - and should - forget about it.
Problem solved, à la Herlock and Steve!

You go on doing ripperology your way, gentlemen, and I will do it my way.

But not out here for some time.
Why would he kill near to his mothers house or any other family dwelling.
What connection does any family dwelling have to the case.
Is it likely that a CL, contaminated with blood and in possession of body parts, would arrive at his mothers house.
If stopped by the police at 3am would CL have said “it ok officer im on my way to visiting Aunty Joan!”

You can do Ripperology your own way Fish. Which is to manoeuvre every single fact so that it points to CL’s guilt. Its transparent to all. The case against CL, which not strong to begin with, is crumbling around your feet.
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  #1545  
Old 06-18-2018, 04:39 AM
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Yes, Griffiths was very clear about the suggested murder victims and the order in which they died.

And yes again, Caz, you are sooooooo correct: if you use the ruse Lechmere used in Bucks Row, then you cannot use it again later.

What are you suggesting? That he should have run and saved it for another day?
Lechmere could have walked away from the scene and then he'd have had his joker to play if he was caught near one of his subsequent scenes of crime and had no other option but to be ready with an innocent explanation.

And I suggest this is precisely what the killer did - he simply walked away before the next person, or beat copper, could come along, and never drew attention to himself. That way, if he was in fact seen negotiating with Chapman, for instance, or manhandling Stride, or canoodling with Eddowes, or going with Kelly into her room, he couldn't possibly have been identified as the same man who had claimed to find Nichols and attended the inquest.

If any of those sightings were of the killer himself with his victim, I'd say there is next to no chance that this was Lechmere behaving so recklessly after his close call in Buck's Row. He'd have been insane to draw attention to himself a second time, because as you say, I am 'sooooooo correct' that he 'cannot' use his joker a second time.

Love,

Caz
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  #1546  
Old 06-18-2018, 05:39 AM
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But Caz, you don´t know that Lechmere was a killer in my mind only. What a disastrous thing to say. I am supposed to be the biased one, but here you are, one by one, professing to much worse bias yourself! Steve goes on about how it is proven that Paul was within earshot, Herlock says that the geographical ties Lechmere had to St Georges are irrelevant, Gareth says that disagreeing with the police over what was said in combination with a murder is not a red flag and now you present a theory that Lechmere cannot have been the killer other than in my mind...?

It is a pretty ugly exhibition of bias in my eyes!

You then, somewhat mysteriously, move on to claim that I would have said that Lechmere could go on killing after Bucks Row, relying on having an innocent reason to give for his presence at the murder sites...?

Just where did you get THAT from? I never said anything remotely like it. I instead say that he burnt that option in Bucks Row. Have you not read that? Seen that? Heard me saying that?
So why accuse me of having said something I have never even hinted at?

You go on by suggesting that since he burnt his innocense ship down to the ground(or surface...?) in Bucks Row, he should have taken his business elsewhere afterwards, instead of killing in places he was associated with.

Caz, if only!

If only the world was a pretty place! If only people behaved the way we expect them to!

But you know, neither applies.

Have a look at how many killers who have been caught, where it has been subsequently shown that they have killed along paths they were associated with.

Guess how the phrase "comfort zone" was invented?

Lechmere was not under suspicion. Nobody was interested in his paths, or compared them to the murder sites. He was just as free to murder away as any other serial killer has been over the years, and he took the same kind of advantage of it as they have done: he killed within his comfort zone.

Have you noticed how killers tend to get nicknames that are geographically based? The East Area rapist, for example. Or even worse, the Visalia ransacker! The Green River killer. The Sacramento Vampire. The Boston Strangler.

That is because they - in spite of how smart it would be to change hunting grounds - stick with a confined territory.

In Lechmeres case, it also applies that he would not have had all the time in the world to go to Leith, Banbury, Cropredy and Anchorage to confuse the police. But sine they had no clue who the killer was, they had nobody to pin the geography on, and Berner Street and Mitre Square would have helped immensely to erase the tracks leading to Lechmere.

So basically, if you are asking "would he not be smarter if he spread his venues more?", you get a wholehearted YES from me.

But if you instead ask "Should we not expect that he would have spread his venues more?", I´m afraid it is a no.
I apologise, Fish [don't faint!], for misunderstanding your geography argument. I genuinely believed you were trying to argue that Lechmere chose his murder locations according to where he'd always have an innocent explanation ready for being there, as you appear to believe he did when he was happy to kill in Buck's Row, on his way to work.

My argument has been that a guilty Lechmere would have been only too well aware of the fact that it had been a close call on that occasion, and unless he was a total fvckwit he would do everything to avoid being seen with a future victim anywhere, but if he had any sense he would also avoid killing in locations which provided an association with him after the event with reference to his known movements and whereabouts in time and place. I believe you argued that by calling himself Cross, he could prevent people who only knew him as Lechmere making those kind of connections and becoming suspicious. That would imply his awareness of the risk of killing in locations that could be associated with the name Lechmere.

If your theory is that he killed in such locations, despite that close call in Buck's Row and regardless of the risk of setting up another geographical association with each new murder, or perhaps because he simply couldn't see this was a risk, it might work if you are willing to concede that he would have taken the greatest care never to be seen with another victim, in which case you would need to argue that he was not the man seen with Chapman, nor one of the men seen with Stride, nor the man seen with Eddowes, nor any of the men seen with Kelly, and therefore none of these men was the ripper.

Is that what you have always believed? Or is it something you will now believe because it doesn't make sense that Lechmere would have engaged with any of his subsequent victims in front of witnesses?

Love,

Caz
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Last edited by caz : 06-18-2018 at 05:51 AM.
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  #1547  
Old 06-18-2018, 06:23 AM
FrankO FrankO is offline
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Following on, when Neil said that he was the finder of the body and that it was not true that two men had found it before him, Mizen had a reaffirmation of the carmans story.

Everything added up AS LONG AS NEIL STUCK TO HIS STORY.
Not quite, Christer. Neil’s statements make it clear that he hadn’t sent 2 men to get assistance, so that goes against the carman’s story.
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Mizen must have been flummoxed, to say the least, by the developments that ensued. I think there is every chance that he will have asked himself where things did not add up, and that he may have weighed in the possibility that he himself could have in some way misheard or misunderstood the carmans words.
If Mizen actually did ask himself where things did not add up, he certainly missed the discrepancy between what Lechmere told him about the woman’s condition (just “There’s a woman lying in the street”) and seeing that her throat was severely cut. He certainly doesn't seem to have wondered about that one.

The best,
Frank
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  #1548  
Old 06-18-2018, 07:23 AM
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Says you. I know. And I disagree. I would have considered it reckless and stupid to run.

It is called a disagreement.
The alternative to Lechmere being the killer and hanging around for the next man to arrive at the scene, was someone who didn't hang around for Lechmere to get there, but ran - or even walked - away. Lechmere could have turned out to be a copper, just like Paul could have been. And PC Neil was not long behind either of them.

This 'reckless and stupid' behaviour served anyone other than Lechmere well enough, and it would also have allowed anyone other than Lechmere the luxury of being seen subsequently with one or more of his victims without the Buck's Row association to worry about. Not so Lechmere, who really would have been reckless and stupid ever to let himself be seen again, either in the company of a future victim, or even somewhere frequented by prostitutes.

Love,

Caz
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Old 06-18-2018, 08:06 AM
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on your last point-I think the reasoning is, once Paulhad mentioned him in the press, Lech felt like he needed to come forward.
Hi Abby,

Would Lechmere not have presumed that PC Mizen had dutifully reported his encounter with two men, before Paul went to the papers?

That would surely have been more reason for Lechmere to come forward with his account, not knowing what Mizen may already have said about him to his superiors, rather than because of anything Paul said in the paper, which included no description and nothing to suggest the 'other man' had said or done anything that put him in a bad light.

It's Mizen who had the real need to come forward once Paul had mentioned - and condemned him in the press. He was the one whose behaviour was under the spotlight because of Paul. A guilty Lechmere only had Mizen to fear, and coming forward made it a certainty that he would have to stand his ground if the PC accused him outright of lying, either on the night or at the inquest - or on both occasions.

Love,

Caz
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  #1550  
Old 06-18-2018, 08:28 AM
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It’s reasonable to say that Paul would have heard CL walking away but that in itself wouldn’t have made him suspicious of course. By the time that he reached the site CL could have been 30-40 yards away in the dark. In the dark Paul would have seen the shape on the ground on the other side of the road. He might not have gone over but if he hid, then had a closer look, then perhaps given her a shake to see if she responded, then perhaps checked for a pulse (this might have taken up another 30 seconds to a minute, by which time CL would have been say 100 yards away in the dark. Then if he does start shouting “police, murder” is it likely that a policeman would detain someone that he saw walking along a street 150 yards away from that distant voice?
Hi HS,

In that scenario, Paul would have been the prime suspect if he'd got any blood on him from touching CL's victim, because raising the alarm doesn't prove innocence. He would arguably have had to shout "police, murder" if he heard the heavy tread of the beat copper's boots approaching while he was checking the woman's pulse.

So in fact, the killer had to be better off leaving the innocent finder alone, having to explain himself.

Quote:
This option for a guilty CL surely would be preferable to calling someone over who would undoubtedly suggest that they find a constable with CL in possession of the murder weapon and ‘possibly’ with Nichols blood on him (in the dark he couldn’t be certain of being completely blood-free.) Added to that CL immediately announces himself as being alone with the body and with no one else around to suspect.
Ah but HS, you forget - CL wouldn't necessarily have had much, if any blood on him. Expert opinion. Now, whether CL knew that or not doesn't really matter because a psychopath - and he'd have been one if he was the killer - would have taken that risk anyway, believing he could control any situation or any pesky witness.

The evidence for this is the fact that everyone did dance to CL's tune and he did get away, without any blood or weapon found on him!

QED

Love,

Caz
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Last edited by caz : 06-18-2018 at 08:34 AM.
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