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  #1531  
Old 06-17-2018, 10:52 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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I have overall lost interest in "debating" with some of the people of this thread, and for very obvious reasons.

I now read from Herlock, who dabbles in the fine art of misrepresenting me on a daily basis, that I would have said that all Eastenders hated the police.

I have - of course, and as is so often the case when Herlock is involved - not said this at all. But in order to be able to attack me, Herlock needs to invent this falsehood.

What I said that there is absolutely no guarantee that the person who arrived after Lechmere did up at Browns would press the point to contact the police. And I said this because Herlock assured us all that this person WOULD press that point.

What I tried to do was to offer some necessary nuance, therefore. A contact with reality, if you will.

The Eastenders had a degree of distrust towards the police. It is an ascertained fact. And when this important point of mine is made to dissolve Herlocks misunderstanding or misleading, he says "Fisherman says that there is not a chance in hell that an Eastender would speak to the police!"

Are you never ashamed of yourself, Herlock, for doing this time and time again?

Or are you so entrenched in your efforts to tarnish me that you don´t even notice it?

It is an absolute shame for any sort of debate, and I am feeling embarrased to be on the same site. Please try and sober up and stop this malice, Herlock. It would do the debate a world of good if you could manage that.

If you are pondering some sort of retaliation post, kindly keep to the subject and explain to me where I have supposedly said what you claim I have said. It is simply not true, is it? Anyone who can read knows who is the misrepresenter.

I will keep an eye open for your answer, Herlock, just in case that you do not come clean - or avoid the point.

Last edited by Fisherman : 06-17-2018 at 11:21 PM.
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  #1532  
Old 06-17-2018, 10:57 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Just another post before I leave again.

I notice Steve says that Lechmere´s mothers lodgings were not very close at all to Berner Street.

Gary wisely asks me to confirm that the lodgings were in Cable Street, and points out that this is not in line with a visit to his mother.

This is one of the matters where it seems nobody is listening to what I am saying. It was said in the docu that she lived in Cable Street, but I have corrected this since - a number of times, actually. But the Cable Street address, it seems, dies hard - if at all.

When Stride died, Lechmere´s mother did not live in Cable Street. Edward Stow found this out after the docu was made. She instead lived in 1 Mary Ann Street.

I hope it is close enough for you, Steve. But as you say, there were so many OTHERS living in these streets. Not that they all "found" Nichols alone, but anyway - surely they must dissolve Lechmere´s candidacy on the geographical point? As Herlock so neatly points out, it is simply "irrelevant" where she lived. It does not belong to the case, and plays no role when we look at it. We can - and should - forget about it.
Problem solved, à la Herlock and Steve!

You go on doing ripperology your way, gentlemen, and I will do it my way.

But not out here for some time.

Last edited by Fisherman : 06-17-2018 at 11:25 PM.
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  #1533  
Old 06-18-2018, 12:39 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Just another post before I leave again.

I notice Steve says that Lechmere´s mothers lodgings were not very close at all to Berner Street.

Gary wisely asks me to confirm that the lodgings were in Cable Street, and points out that this is not in line with a visit to his mother.

This is one of the matters where it seems nobody is listening to what I am saying. It was said in the docu that she lived in Cable Street, but I have corrected this since - a number of times, actually. But the Cable Street address, it seems, dies hard - if at all.

When Stride died, Lechmere´s mother did not live in Cable Street. Edward Stow found this out after the docu was made. She instead lived in 1 Mary Ann Street.

I hope it is close enough for you, Steve. But as you say, there were so many OTHERS living in these streets. Not that they all "found" Nichols alone, but anyway - surely they must dissolve Lechmere´s candidacy on the geographical point? As Herlock so neatly points out, it is simply "irrelevant" where she lived. It does not belong to the case, and plays no role when we look at it. We can - and should - forget about it.
Problem solved, à la Herlock and Steve!

You go on doing ripperology your way, gentlemen, and I will do it my way.

But not out here for some time.
Thanks for the clarification, Fish. The family, including CAL himself, had of course lived in Mary Ann Street before - in 1861 - so he was probably very familiar with the streets in the surrounding area, including Berner Street which would have been on the route from there to the Commercial Road.
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  #1534  
Old 06-18-2018, 01:22 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
Thanks for the clarification, Fish. The family, including CAL himself, had of course lived in Mary Ann Street before - in 1861 - so he was probably very familiar with the streets in the surrounding area, including Berner Street which would have been on the route from there to the Commercial Road.
My pleasure, Gary!

I think that we must look as realistically as possible on all of this, and to me, his mothers address is of vital importance in building a case against Charles Lechmere.

Saying that there were so many others living in the neighborhood is not doing the fine art of logical thinking any favours, since none of them were found standing near the body all alone close in time to her death. Of course his mother address is a piece of the puzzle that may well be of the utmost importance.

I won´t even go into what I think about calling the proximity between Berner Street and Mary Ann Street "irrelevant".

But what I would once again press, and what is often forgotten, is that we need not have Lechmere visiting his mother on the Stride murder night - it is quite enough to be aware of how the general area was one where he - just as you say - would have been very, very familiar. If he was in the extremely common habit of using his night off to go to a pub and meet up with friends for a drink, then it is likely in the extreme that he would have his regular water holes in this very district.

I fail to see how this glaringly obvious fact can evoke different kinds of protests and criticism - when searching for a suspect, it is of great interest if the person we come up with can be shown to have ties to the area/s where the crime/s is/are committed.

Lechmere had very obvious ties to the exact area where Stride died. Period.

I won´t be hanging around here much for some time, so let me take the opportunity to thank you for offering a sound and logical attitude to these matters. There are times out here when I despair totally about any logic at all being up for grabs, so your voice is very welcome - and much needed.

Last edited by Fisherman : 06-18-2018 at 01:30 AM.
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  #1535  
Old 06-18-2018, 01:39 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Just another post before I leave again.

I notice Steve says that Lechmere´s mothers lodgings were not very close at all to Berner Street.

Gary wisely asks me to confirm that the lodgings were in Cable Street, and points out that this is not in line with a visit to his mother.

This is one of the matters where it seems nobody is listening to what I am saying. It was said in the docu that she lived in Cable Street, but I have corrected this since - a number of times, actually. But the Cable Street address, it seems, dies hard - if at all.

When Stride died, Lechmere´s mother did not live in Cable Street. Edward Stow found this out after the docu was made. She instead lived in 1 Mary Ann Street.

I hope it is close enough for you, Steve. But as you say, there were so many OTHERS living in these streets. Not that they all "found" Nichols alone, but anyway - surely they must dissolve Lechmere´s candidacy on the geographical point? As Herlock so neatly points out, it is simply "irrelevant" where she lived. It does not belong to the case, and plays no role when we look at it. We can - and should - forget about it.
Problem solved, à la Herlock and Steve!

You go on doing ripperology your way, gentlemen, and I will do it my way.

But not out here for some time.

Fish, actually i didn't pick up on Cable Street and used Mary Ann Street. The figures i suggest were from memory, but a quick check on the 93-96 OS gives 241-241-256 yards.
Yes its close but not adjacent by an means. Its slight longer than the distance that Paul lived from Brown Yard.


Btw, Lechmere was not found alone with Nichols, he was 30-40 yards ahead of Robert Paul, until you find evidence that Lechmere was significantly further in front of Paul that remain the established historical fact based on the sources.

By all means Fish, carry on using you methods, where imagination is substituted for fact,
I on the other hand will carry on using the sources and following tried and tested methods of historical(or any subject for that matter) research.


Steve
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  #1536  
Old 06-18-2018, 01:46 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
Thanks for the clarification, Fish. The family, including CAL himself, had of course lived in Mary Ann Street before - in 1861 - so he was probably very familiar with the streets in the surrounding area, including Berner Street which would have been on the route from there to the Commercial Road.
Quite right Gary, but so would Backchurch Lane, Batty and Christian Street, Berner beung the middle option.
Not the most obvious route to either Doveton Street or Broad Street, but certainly possible.

Steve
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  #1537  
Old 06-18-2018, 02:06 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
Fish, actually i didn't pick up on Cable Street and used Mary Ann Street. The figures i suggest were from memory, but a quick check on the 93-96 OS gives 241-241-256 yards.
Yes its close but not adjacent by an means. Its slight longer than the distance that Paul lived from Brown Yard.


Btw, Lechmere was not found alone with Nichols, he was 30-40 yards ahead of Robert Paul, until you find evidence that Lechmere was significantly further in front of Paul that remain the established historical fact based on the sources.

By all means Fish, carry on using you methods, where imagination is substituted for fact,
I on the other hand will carry on using the sources and following tried and tested methods of historical(or any subject for that matter) research.


Steve
1. Lechmere would have been very much aquainted with the Berner Street area. Whether he visited his mother and daughter or not on the murder night is impossible to say, but it would certainly be a possibility with logical paths. Equally, he could have met friends and/or visited pubs.
All that matters is the proven matter that Lechmere was tied to the area. The rest is quibble country - your favoured territory.

2. Lechmere was found alone with Nichols. Robert Paul is recorded as stating that he walked down Bucks Row and as he came close to Browns, he saw a man stading in the street - Lechmere. That effectively means that Robert Paul found Lechmere alone in the street, close to the victim. It is just as much on record as Lechmeres version is. And Lechmeres version does NOT preclude that he was alone with the victim as Robert Paul arrived, on the contrary - Lechmere first HEARS Paul and then sees him emerging out of the gloom. So Lechmere too admits to having been found by Paul, standing alone and near the body. What he in a roundabout way denies is NOT having been fund alone with the body - it is having had time enough to be the killer.

3. As for substituting imagination for facts, I was not the one who imagined that Lechmere was not found alone with the body - you were. As I say, quibble country is your favoured theory, and if one is too fond of quibbling, one may lose one´s way at times.

But since I don´t want this to turn into MORE of quibble country, I send off by once again laying down as a fact that the ONLY thing that matters in this part of the debate is that we have unequivocal proof that Lechmere is tied to the Berner Street area.

That´s all. It is the important part, the base question answered and that was what I set out to do with these posts.

What YOU set out to do, I will leave for others to find out. A hint is that it is all about obfuscating, quibbling, trying to hide away the facts and claiming that you are a paragon of virtue when it comes to research.

A paragon of virtue who claims that Lechmere was absolutely not found alone close to the body of Polly Nichols by Robert Paul on the morning of the 31:st of August 1888.

There is an old fear of touching this wording, since it is apparently regarded as involving a possible hint at guilt, but when somebody IS found alone in a street where somebody lied murdered, then it simply must be au fait to point it out.

Last edited by Fisherman : 06-18-2018 at 02:13 AM.
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  #1538  
Old 06-18-2018, 02:09 AM
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caz caz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
"Could Mizen have thought....?"

Yes, he could have thought anything - just look at all the fancy suggestions that are offered on his account out here!

And I don´t think that the carmen would have been regarded as persons of interest at all, Caz - somebody had to find the body, don´t ya´know.
The point I was making here, Fish, is that if Paul hadn't blabbed to the papers, and if Cross hadn't come forward voluntarily, and if Mizen had promptly reported his encounter with these two strangers, who had left Buck's Row to draw his attention to the fact that Nichols was lying there, they would instantly have been sought, as obvious persons of interest, since nobody else had claimed to see them, including PC Neil, so they would be important witnesses if not potential suspects.

Mizen's boss: "So what questions did you ask these men and what identification and contact details did you get from them?"

Mizen: "Er, pass."

Mizen's boss [sighing]: "Okay, so you got a good look at both of them and you would recognise them again, in the event that they haven't scarpered to God knows where by now?"

Mizen: "Er, I'll get me coat."

Mizen's boss: "And return your truncheon before you leave, you stupid Constable."

So you could say that Paul and Cross saved Mizen's bacon by identifying themselves for him.

Love,

Caz
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  #1539  
Old 06-18-2018, 02:31 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Lets have a look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
1. Lechmere would have been very much aquainted with the Berner Street area. Whether he visited his mother and daughter or not on the murder night is impossible to say, but it would certainly be a possibility with logical paths. Equally, he could have met friends and/or visited pubs.
All that matters is the proven matter that Lechmere was tied to the area. The rest is quibble country - your favoured territory.


A fair point, the same applies to Kosminski also.

2. Lechmere was found alone with Nichols. Robert Paul is recorded as stating that he walked down Bucks Row and as he came close to Browns, he saw a man stading in the street - Lechmere. That effectively means that Robert Paul found Lechmere alone in the street, close to the victim. It is just as much on record as Lechmeres version is. And Lechmeres version does NOT preclude that he was alone with the victim as Robert Paul arrived, on the contrary - Lechmere first HEARS Paul and then sees him emerging out of the gloom. So Lechmere too admits to having been found by Paul, standing alone and near the body. What he in a roundabout way denies is NOT having been fund alone with the body - it is having had time enough to be the killer.

Your Opinion.
To suggest that Lechmere had been "found" by Paul and that he "admits" such is twisting language beyond was is reasonable.
No matter how much you wish to protest, there is nothing in the sources whixh says Lechmere is "found" or is "alone" with a body


3. As for substituting imagination for facts, I was not the one who imagined that Lechmere was not found alone with the body - you were. As I say, quibble country is your favoured theory, and if one is too fond of quibbling, one may lose one´s way at times.

Given that the sources do not say he is "found alone" with the body, that response is extremly poor and somewhat sad, but actually not unexpected.

But since I don´t want this to turn into MORE of quibble country, I send off by once again laying down as a fact that the ONLY thing that matters in this part of the debate is that we have unequivocal proof that Lechmere is tied to the Berner Street area.

Yes he has links, so does Kosminski

That´s all. It is the important part, the base question answered and that was what I set out to do with these posts.

What YOU set out to do, I will leave for others to find out. A hint is that it is all about obfuscating, quibbling, trying to hide away the facts and claiming that you are a paragon of virtue when it comes to research.

A paragon of virtue who claims that Lechmere was absolutely not found alone close to the body of Polly Nichols by Robert Paul on the morning of the 31:st of August 1888.
Misrepsensing again I see, Lechmere was seen by Paul at an unknown distance ahead, Lechmere was not alone in Bucks Row, he is walking ahead of Paul. Evidence to suggest he is alone does not seem to exist.

Noone has denied he was reasonably close to the Body, however it seems he was in the road, which is 24 foot wide, that's 8 yards, the body was by the gate to Brown's Yard some yards away.


Steve
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  #1540  
Old 06-18-2018, 02:38 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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A few clarifications needed here to some points

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
My pleasure, Gary!

I think that we must look as realistically as possible on all of this, and to me, his mothers address is of vital importance in building a case against Charles Lechmere.

Saying that there were so many others living in the neighborhood is not doing the fine art of logical thinking any favours, since none of them were found standing near the body all alone close in time to her death. Of course his mother address is a piece of the puzzle that may well be of the utmost importance.

"Many others" ? Who is talking of many others, I was talking specifically about the known addresses of the Kosminski's. While we do not know that Aaron would have been at any of the family homes on a given day; neither do we have any knowledge to support the idea Lechmere visited his mother on the night of the double event. The comment about "many others" misrepresents what was posted.

I won´t even go into what I think about calling the proximity between Berner Street and Mary Ann Street "irrelevant".

Again misrepresnting what was said, it was never said the proximity was "irrelevant".
Rather, the fact that it is not as close as implied is very Relevant indeed, particularly when one other suspect has connections to Berner Street, which are much closer.


But what I would once again press, and what is often forgotten, is that we need not have Lechmere visiting his mother on the Stride murder night - it is quite enough to be aware of how the general area was one where he - just as you say - would have been very, very familiar. If he was in the extremely common habit of using his night off to go to a pub and meet up with friends for a drink, then it is likely in the extreme that he would have his regular water holes in this very district.
I fail to see how this glaringly obvious fact can evoke different kinds of protests and criticism - when searching for a suspect, it is of great interest if the person we come up with can be shown to have ties to the area/s where the crime/s is/are committed.

A very fair point, the same however applies to Kosminski.

Lechmere had very obvious ties to the exact area where Stride died. Period.
Again a fair point, the same however applies to Kosminski.


Steve
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