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  #4851  
Old 05-24-2018, 05:30 AM
Spitfire Spitfire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony View Post

I used to have Michael Hanratty's phone number and we spoke on some occasions and this was a point I brought up with him.

This was his reply: "When I went to see Jimmy in prison I mentioned about hiding stuff under the back seat of the bus." Jimmy said: "Look Mick I know I am not the brightest in the world but do you or anyone else seriously think I would shoot and kill someone and then leave the murder weapon on a public service vehicle where it was bound to found. I would have chucked it in the river somewhere. Yes I admit I did used to hide unwanted or worthless jewellery under the back seat but that is all."

I recall that one of the pro-Hanratty arguments was that he would not have used the word "institutions" as used by the gunman in the car according to Valerie Storie, yet here we have a well authenticated instance of Jim using the phrase "a public service vehicle" rather than what most folk would say, namely "a bus".

Maybe Jim was not as linguistically backward as some would have us believe.
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  #4852  
Old 05-25-2018, 12:32 PM
Graham Graham is offline
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I would think that as he spent a lot of his earlier life in such places, the word 'institution' would be one that JH would have known only too well.

Woffinden (P 91) illustrates what he describes as JH's basic inarticulacy when he describes France as 'someone who learned me previous occasions when I was younger'. I don't think this brief passage is all that inarticulate, to be honest, certainly no worse that what I hear kids shouting at each other these days. I don't recall anyone in any of the books being referenced as saying that they couldn't understand him or what he was talking about. He may well have stumbled over his words when under the severe and unimaginable pressure of the court-room, but I don't get the basic impression that in everyday life his diction and use of English was anything out of the ordinary. I may be wrong, of course.....as a Midlander I have always had trouble in fully understanding the modern-day London accent, something which the BBC and southern English people in general may well find difficult to understand in turn.

Graham
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  #4853  
Old 05-29-2018, 06:32 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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I know next to nothing about the Hanratty case so id like a bit of advice about books from those that do. Just a couple of quick reviews would be helpful

Hanratty: The Final Verdict - Woffinden.

Hanratty: The Inconvenient Truth - Razen

Who Killed Hanratty? - Foot.

Thanks all
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  #4854  
Old 05-30-2018, 02:56 AM
Alfie Alfie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
I know next to nothing about the Hanratty case so id like a bit of advice about books from those that do. Just a couple of quick reviews would be helpful

Hanratty: The Final Verdict - Woffinden.

Hanratty: The Inconvenient Truth - Razen

Who Killed Hanratty? - Foot.

Thanks all
Foot and Woffinden together will give you almost all the available background info on the case, but keep in mind that both were convinced of Hanratty's innocence and their analysis carries this bias. Foot is the more even-handed but Woffinden was able to use sources unavailable to Foot so is more comprehensive.

I wasn't aware of Razen's short book and have just finished reading it. He makes a few errors of fact (eg, Hanratty's breeze block job being in Bedford, Dixie committing suicide after Hanratty's execution) but he gives a useful if very abbreviated overview of the case.

One puzzling thing for me: Razen refers on a couple of occasions to an apparent acquaintance between Alphon and Hanratty. I haven't read anything that even hints at a connection between these two men. What have I missed?
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  #4855  
Old 05-30-2018, 03:07 AM
Graham Graham is offline
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Quote:
One puzzling thing for me: Razen refers on a couple of occasions to an apparent acquaintance between Alphon and Hanratty. I haven't read anything that even hints at a connection between these two men. What have I missed?
Because they both stayed at The Vienna, it has been suggested by conspiracy theorists that this was no coincidence but was a planned meeting between the two. Tempting, I concede, but there is absolutely no evidence let alone proof that the two knew each other. They moved in totally different circles and I doubt if they could have stuck one another's company for more than a minute or two.

I think Foot did allude to a suggestion that they were acquainted, but he didn't pursue it so I assume he dismissed it.

Graham
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  #4856  
Old 05-30-2018, 05:37 AM
Spitfire Spitfire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
I know next to nothing about the Hanratty case so id like a bit of advice about books from those that do. Just a couple of quick reviews would be helpful

Hanratty: The Final Verdict - Woffinden.

Hanratty: The Inconvenient Truth - Razen

Who Killed Hanratty? - Foot.

Thanks all
I agree with Alfie's quick summary above that Woffinden's book is the most comprehensive of the three you have named, and the most comprehensive of all books written on the subject.

I would recommend that you add the judgement of the Court of Appeal in 2002 to your reading list. Indeed I would be inclined to begin reading with that.
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  #4857  
Old 05-30-2018, 06:45 AM
OneRound OneRound is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post
I agree with Alfie's quick summary above that Woffinden's book is the most comprehensive of the three you have named, and the most comprehensive of all books written on the subject.

I would recommend that you add the judgement of the Court of Appeal in 2002 to your reading list. Indeed I would be inclined to begin reading with that.
Hi Herlock - not for the first time Spitfire has beaten me to it. I was going to recommend the Court of Appeal's 2002 judgement not only as reading material but also as a starting point. Whilst some here can and do quibble with the odd bit, it sets out known facts and background pretty methodically.

Although the Court make a strong case for Hanratty's guilt, they leave me unconvinced that it was fairly proven. Anyway that's just my humble opinion. I'll leave you to your own reading and conclusions.

Btw, I don't know the Razen book.

Best regards,

OneRound
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  #4858  
Old 05-30-2018, 07:24 AM
Graham Graham is offline
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A few comments on the Razen Book (more of a pamphlet, actually) can be found here: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=309811. It's OK, but I wasn't impressed. His standard of English I thought rather poor, too.

Another (now rare) book is Shadows Of Deadman's Hill by Leonard Miller, who is convinced that Hanratty was guilty. He refutes many of the standard arguments, especially regarding the Liverpool and Rhyl Alibis, but of course there are posters to these boards who may not agree with him! I think it was Derrick who said that the publisher (Zoilus Press) printed only 1000 copies. At one time a few years ago copies were being advertised on the net for over £600! I wonder if anyone ever paid that sort of money. I wasn't tempted to sell my copy, have to say.

I agree that the Court of Appeal Judgment should also be on your reading list.

Graham
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  #4859  
Old 05-30-2018, 07:33 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfie View Post
Foot and Woffinden together will give you almost all the available background info on the case, but keep in mind that both were convinced of Hanratty's innocence and their analysis carries this bias. Foot is the more even-handed but Woffinden was able to use sources unavailable to Foot so is more comprehensive.

I wasn't aware of Razen's short book and have just finished reading it. He makes a few errors of fact (eg, Hanratty's breeze block job being in Bedford, Dixie committing suicide after Hanratty's execution) but he gives a useful if very abbreviated overview of the case.

One puzzling thing for me: Razen refers on a couple of occasions to an apparent acquaintance between Alphon and Hanratty. I haven't read anything that even hints at a connection between these two men. What have I missed?
I appreciate the info Alfie.

Cheers
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  #4860  
Old 05-30-2018, 07:35 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post
I agree with Alfie's quick summary above that Woffinden's book is the most comprehensive of the three you have named, and the most comprehensive of all books written on the subject.

I would recommend that you add the judgement of the Court of Appeal in 2002 to your reading list. Indeed I would be inclined to begin reading with that.
Thanks for that Spitfire.

Iíll take your advice
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