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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Doctors and Coroners

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  #11  
Old 05-16-2018, 08:40 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
Hi Sam,
As I've just posted, the Times report (to me) suggests the "shelving" is caused by the cutter being on the body's right side, so the knife is not held perpendicular to the ground but is pointing down and to the left....If that makes sense?
I think this is how her liver was stabbed by the point of the knife
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  #12  
Old 05-16-2018, 08:41 AM
Kattrup Kattrup is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
Foster's mortuary sketch is probably a better guide to the extent of the wounds than the photo.

http://photos.casebook.org/displayim...album=35&pos=8
Thanks, Joshua.

I’m not sure it solves the “opposite” the ensiform cartilage-part to my satisfaction, though
As his drawing shows the starting (or ending) precisely at that point. So what’s “opposite” supposed to mean?

Comparing the photo to the description of the cuts around the navel, it seems clear to me that the description moves upwards, I.e. it follows the cut from the pubic area to the sternum. But perhaps I’m misinterpreting it.
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  #13  
Old 05-16-2018, 09:21 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Originally Posted by Kattrup View Post
Thanks, Joshua.

I’m not sure it solves the “opposite” the ensiform cartilage-part to my satisfaction, though
As his drawing shows the starting (or ending) precisely at that point. So what’s “opposite” supposed to mean?
It is puzzling, but I've always taken it to be an obscure Victorian alternative term for "near". If you do that, the description of the cuts and their direction then makes sense.

Quote:
Comparing the photo to the description of the cuts around the navel, it seems clear to me that the description moves upwards, I.e. it follows the cut from the pubic area to the sternum. But perhaps I’m misinterpreting it.
I think you may be. I certainly read the cut description as going down from the sternum and ending at the crotch. Allthough the navel section is slightly difficult to make out, it starts and ends with a horizontal cut, so reads the same going either way. The bit that puzzles me is why the cut goes horizontally right and then doubles back to go down the left side of the navel, then horizontally back right again. Was he intending to cut out the navel completely, a la Chapman?
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  #14  
Old 05-16-2018, 09:46 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kattrup View Post
Comparing the photo to the description of the cuts around the navel, it seems clear to me that the description moves upwards, I.e. it follows the cut from the pubic area to the sternum. But perhaps I’m misinterpreting it.
You are, I'm afraid, Kat. As I said, nobody would describe a wound to the pubic area as "opposite the ensiform cartilage" anymore than one would describe a head-wound as "opposite the feet".
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  #15  
Old 05-16-2018, 10:19 AM
Kattrup Kattrup is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
You are, I'm afraid, Kat. As I said, nobody would describe a wound to the pubic area as "opposite the ensiform cartilage" anymore than one would describe a head-wound as "opposite the feet".
I meant, as mentioned, the description of the cut around the navel:

Quote:
The abdominal walls were divided in the middle line to within a quarter of an inch of the navel. The cut then took a horizontal course for two inches and a half towards the right side. It then divided round the navel on the left side, and made a parallel incision to the former horizontal incision, leaving the navel on a tongue of skin. Attached to the navel was two and a half inches of the lower part of the rectus muscle on the left side of the abdomen. The incision then took an oblique direction to the right and was shelving. The incision went down the right side of the vagina and rectum for half an inch behind the rectum.
The cut first moves to the right. then moves around the navel on the left, and makes a parallel horizontal cut.
Looking at the photo, how is that possible if the description moves from sternum to pubes? The line of the cut clearly, or somewhat semi clearly, goes to the right of the navel.

I wonder if there’s a comma missing in the sentence “It then divided round the navel on the left side”
Perhaps it should be “It then divided round, the navel on the left side”

Last edited by Kattrup : 05-16-2018 at 10:22 AM.
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  #16  
Old 05-16-2018, 10:29 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Here's the way the Times reports that section;

"The abdominal walls were divided vertically in the middle line to within a quarter of an inch of the navel; the cut then took a horizontal course for 2 ½ in. to the right side; it then divided the navel on the left side - round it - and then made an incision parallel to the former horizontal incision, leaving the navel on a tongue of skin. Attached to the navel was 2 ½ in. of the lower part of the rectus muscle of the left side of the abdomen. The incision then took an oblique course to the right."
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  #17  
Old 05-16-2018, 10:40 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Kattrup View Post
I meant, as mentioned, the description of the cut around the navel
Ah, sorry, Kat. I missed that bit.
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  #18  
Old 05-16-2018, 11:27 AM
Kattrup Kattrup is offline
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No problem, Sam.

Just trying to understand the process. I find it interesting since it gives some indication of the killer’s position, and possibly of his handedness.

I’ll explain: in my opinion, the killer kneeled at Eddowes’ right hand side. This is of course also what dr. Brown thought:
Quote:
The cut was made by someone on the right side of the body, kneeling below the middle of the body.
There are, in my opinion, many indications that this was the case: face turned to the left, consistent with killer holding and rolling head with left hand while cutting the throat with right, or possibly the head being knocked to the left due to the many slashes and cuts from the right -hand side.
Colon placed between left arm and body, I.e. on opposite side of killer, would have been in the way if placed on same side.

Intestines placed at Eddowes’ right shoulder, again consistent with right handed killer cutting open, then drawing out viscera with empty left hand, placing them to his left.
Eddowes’ left leg straight, but right leg bent, the killer drew it towards him to open space to cut genital area. Cut extending from thigh area to right hand side of abdomen. Stabs, cuts to liver, also right- hand side.

A right handed killer kneeling to Eddowes’ right hand side would, in my opinion, logically slice open the abdomen from right (pubes) to left (sternum).

Starting the cut at the sternum seems in theory to be impractical. In particular starting the cut at the right-hand side of the ribs, if that is what “opposite” the ensiform cartilage means, would entail reaching across and down to killer’s own left side.
In practice of course there’s no telling how much he moved about, so really any direction of cut is possible. But sticking with the description of the cut around the navel and the hypotheses that the killer kneeled to the right, a cut ascending from the groin seems not unlikely.
I therefore started wondering where exactly is the starting point of the cut?
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  #19  
Old 05-16-2018, 12:52 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kattrup View Post
Starting the cut at the sternum seems in theory to be impractical.
Much easier to cut from there than from the pelvis upwards, especially for a right-handed killer, if you think about it, Kat.
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In particular starting the cut at the right-hand side of the ribs, if that is what “opposite” the ensiform cartilage means
As I said earlier, I think Brown simply meant that the knife was placed on the opposite side of the ensiform cartilage - i.e. on the abdominal side, rather than the sternal side, just below where the ribs come together. And slap-bang in the middle of the ribs to boot, not the right-hand side of the ribcage.
Quote:
would entail reaching across and down to killer’s own left side.
Eddowes wasn't a long woman, and she wasn't wide either. A killer positioned to her right wouldn't have had to reach particularly far across or to his left in order to cut from the base of the sternum downwards.
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  #20  
Old 05-16-2018, 01:01 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Kattrup View Post
A right handed killer kneeling to Eddowes’ right hand side would, in my opinion, logically slice open the abdomen from right (pubes) to left (sternum).
On that contrary, that would be rather uncomfortable, as he'd have to have started off with his arm twisted in an awkward position, i.e. with the "pulse" side of his wrist pointing away from him.
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