Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Witnesses: Sarah and Maurice Lewis - by Sam Flynn 39 minutes ago.
Witnesses: Sarah and Maurice Lewis - by Debra A 1 hour and 28 minutes ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: Lechmere was Jack the Ripper - by Herlock Sholmes 4 hours ago.
Scene of the Crimes: Mitre square, very upsetting! - by Rob1n 4 hours ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: Lechmere was Jack the Ripper - by Rob1n 5 hours ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: Lechmere was Jack the Ripper - by Rob1n 5 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Witnesses: Sarah and Maurice Lewis - (10 posts)
Torso Killings: torso maps - (9 posts)
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: Lechmere was Jack the Ripper - (5 posts)
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - (2 posts)
Scene of the Crimes: Mitre square, very upsetting! - (1 posts)
Motive, Method and Madness: Was the ripper and also the torsomans crimes totally non sexual in nature? - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #3331  
Old 04-22-2018, 02:52 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,348
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
She probably wasn't; her killer was a stabber, not a ripper. Even if she was, we still have to account for Smith, Coles, McKenzie, Mylett, etc.

You were talking about the significance of the perpetrators not being caught. I'm just pointing out that we can't read any significance into this, because several murderers weren't caught in the East End alone, in the space of only a couple of years.

In other words, "not being caught" is not good enough to link two series to one killer - if for no other reason than it reflects more on the competency of the police and the difficulty of policing at that time than it does on the abilities of the killers.
Unknown serial killers. Not unknown murders. Big difference, but nice try.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message
  #3332  
Old 04-22-2018, 02:59 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,348
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert St Devil View Post
Careful, Flynn - bunching all those names together and you're liable for throwing a 3rd serial killer in the mix: Jack Jr. the Jabber ha Abby caught on to my second question. I haven't considered mimicry yet; and yes, the questions were more speculative than statistical, I confess. It was asked two-fold: 1) the police never discovered a good lead or a solid clue; and 2) the killers (and their respective parties) never offered a good lead or solid clue over a series of unresolved [possible] murders. I get the one-offer who gets away with murder, but these were series of occurrences which should have increased some likelihood for detection. Instead we're left with this possibility of two serial killers who share the common characterstic of being clever, cunning, lucky s.o.b. who had complete control, not over only the murders but also anyone "in the know" from ever coming forward and bearing witness against him/her/them. If you and I are serial killers in London 88, what's the likelihood we both don't get caught because we're both super stealthy and we both can keep our family, friends & enemies from squaking/squealing?
The police seemed to be on their game; it wasn't taking them long to apprehend the guilty; eg. I don't remember it taking very long to determine who killed Jane Beadmore, few days I think. If her killer was mimicking Jack the Ripper, then he sucked at it because he got caught, which is what I would expect would happen in most cases of mimicry.
Spot on devil. I like the way you think.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message
  #3333  
Old 04-22-2018, 06:43 PM
harry harry is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,811
Default

It is reported there were hundreds of arrests concerning the ripper murders.So hundreds of times when a reasonable belief existed that the killer had been caught.Wonder how many of those police also believed they were arresting the torso murderer.I mean,it is obvious they were one and the same.We are being told so,and not by a policeman either.
Quick reply to this message
  #3334  
Old 04-22-2018, 10:05 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 17,351
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
I'm not sure that huge efforts were put into tracking down the perpetrator(s) of the torso cases, Fish, as they were never remotely in the same league as the Ripper murders - whether in terms of public, police or press interest.

Apart from that, it remains the case that the killers of the non-canonical Whitechapel victims were never caught, and it's almost certain that not all of them fell to the Ripper's or the torso killers' hands.

Given that a number of people seem to have found it quite easy to get away with murder in those pre-bloodhound, pre-fingerprinting days, the fact that these particular killers were not apprehended can't be a significant factor at all.
It does not carry much weight, no - and I actually never said so. I said that it is a similarity inbetween the two series, nothing more. On the whole, I agree that it is a similarity into which no real substance can be read until we know WHY they stayed uncaught.
And I agree that the Ripper series involved significantly more police work, but as I am sure YOU will agree, some of it was directed to solve torso murders. Take, for example, the Pinchin Street murder - papers and police alike payed a lot of attention to "Another Whitechapel", as it was called. The Whitehall case and the Liz Jackson case also benefitted from this to a significant degree. It was only the Rainham case in the 1887-89 series that got much less coverage - from police and press alike.

Last edited by Fisherman : 04-22-2018 at 10:30 PM.
Quick reply to this message
  #3335  
Old 04-22-2018, 10:07 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 17,351
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wheat View Post
What a ridiculous thing to say. How is it a similarity that neither killer was apprehended? By your logic any unsolved murder would be similar. Also the resources put into catching The Torso Killer were clearly not nearly as great as those put into catching Jack.
How is it a similarity that neither killer was apprehended? Well, you either get it immediately or you don´t get it at all.

Try this: If two killers both manage to stay uncaught, is that a

1. similarity, or a

2. dissimilarity inbetween them?

You write that by my logic, any unsolved murder would be similar. That, however, is not how the math is done. Staying uncaught does not alter the character of the deed.

But it is nevertheless a similarity inbetween ALL uncaught criminals, something that they share and have in common. Believe it or not.

In the cases we discuss, the similarity may or may not have significance. If the perpetrators were two and used the same tactic to stay uncaught, then it has a significance. If they did not employ the same tactics, then it has no real significance. If it was just the one killer, then that in itself helps to explain why neither (by the police) perceived perp was caught.

It´s a somewhat complicated matter, but let´s not overcomplicate it by claiming that how neither man got caught is not a similarity, John.

Last edited by Fisherman : 04-22-2018 at 10:28 PM.
Quick reply to this message
  #3336  
Old 04-22-2018, 10:39 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 17,351
Default

As an aside, I prefer to discuss the very revealing similarities like the abdominal flaps to having to discussing how the killers stayed uncaught.
The latter should be nothing that a quick point taken to the protocol.

The rest of the similarities is a whole different ballgame, though.
Quick reply to this message
  #3337  
Old 04-22-2018, 11:11 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 10,257
Default

If the abdominal flaps had been cut in exactly the same way it might be interesting, but they weren't.
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message
  #3338  
Old 04-22-2018, 11:20 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 10,257
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Unknown serial killers. Not unknown murders. Big difference, but nice try.
I can't see that there's any difference. Serial offenders or not, the fact is that they were never caught.
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message
  #3339  
Old 04-22-2018, 11:27 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 17,351
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
If the abdominal flaps had been cut in exactly the same way it might be interesting, but they weren't.
So, let´s see here - if the abdominal flaps were sixteen and a half inches long and nine and a half inches wide, then it "might" (let´s not get overenthusiastic here, shall we?) be interesting. Nothing more than that. Interesting, that´s all.

But if one flap was instead sixteen and a half inches long and ten inches wide, then they are not exactly the same, and they are decidedly uninteresting and - let´s face it - definitely not similar.

I think that is the wisest approach you can use. That way, the evidence will surely go away in a jiffy. Not.


Me, I am a lot different. I am saying that regardless of how the flaps looked, they are still a mindblowing similarity inbetween the series. Mindblowing, because this is something that is extremely rare REGARDLESS of the exact shape of the flaps.

Last, but not least, we do of course not know HOW the flaps looked. We don´t know if the three Kelly flaps were equally sized, whether there were flaps from Chapman and/or Jackson that were similar inbetween the two cases or similar to one or more of the Kelly flaps. In short, the sizes and shapes of the flaps from the three victims are not something that can be used to tell the deeds apart, since we have no idea what the looked like other than to a very limited extent.

We would do well to compare with other possible scenarios, like for example if three victims have their fingers clipped of with a garden pruner.

If such a thing happens, we can either say that it is a very unusual and odd similarity - or we can say that since we don´t know whether one, two or three inches of the fingers were clipped off, we should work from the idea that it is as likely with two or three killers as with just the one.

It would be stupid to do the latter. It would be Closeau stuff. It would be in conflict with all we know about useful detecting. It would be nuts, bonkers and ridiculous.

I can think of nobody who would be ignorant and/or intentionally misleading enough to suggest such a thing - and have a hope in hell to get away with it.

Can you?

Last edited by Fisherman : 04-22-2018 at 11:38 PM.
Quick reply to this message
  #3340  
Old 04-22-2018, 11:36 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 10,257
Default

I repeat for the umpteenth time that the flaps cut from Kelly's abdomen (three in number) laid her lower half entirely open from flank to flank. Those cut from Jackson (two in number) were nowhere near as extensive, despite the fact that her killer certainly had more time and privacy at their disposal.
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.