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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #3281  
Old 04-20-2018, 04:47 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by harry View Post
That two serial killers were operating at the same time is a reasonable belief.
It is my belief.
What proof exists that I am wrong?
Sure. And there is no proof. Only belief.
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  #3282  
Old 04-20-2018, 05:02 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Yup, it only works the other way around
Yes, it works the other way around.

Similarities will not become umimportant on account of dissimilarities, unless these dissimilarities conclusively prove that the similarities are only coincidental.

Dissimilarities will become unimportant if they can be explained and if there are similarities that tell us that the perceived dissimilarities are of no real importance.

So there is a difference. Which is what I have been banging on about for weeks. And which any person with a minimum of insight into these things will acknowledge.

When you can show me that the dissimilaritites of these cases rule out the importance of the similarities instead of going on about how it MAY have been like this and it MAY have been like that, you have a case.

Until that happens, you don´t.
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  #3283  
Old 04-20-2018, 05:05 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
That there was even two serial killers, forget all the other similarities, operating at the same time and place, at that period of time should give one pause.
Yes! That is perfectly true. Whenever many people are killed in a flurry, the more logical standpoint is always going to be that the source is the same.

This may be wrong - and has been wrong in a number of cases - but it is nevertheless the expected thing.

And then, if there are similarities inbetween the deeds, the scales tip over very much.

In the Ripper/Torso cases, specifically in the Chapman-Kelly-Jackson case, they will not get back up again.
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  #3284  
Old 04-20-2018, 05:07 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Even when the dissimilarities are objective facts, and the "similarities" are subjective and/or exaggerated, it seems.
So your "truth" about the "strips" is not a subjective or exaggerated one...?

Never throw stones in glass houses, Gareth. It will make the whole structure come tumbling down.
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  #3285  
Old 04-20-2018, 05:09 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by harry View Post
That two serial killers were operating at the same time is a reasonable belief.
It is my belief.
What proof exists that I am wrong?
The only proof there is says that you are less likely to be right. Statistically, you are smoked. Your belief is based on more of personal musings and less on reality.

Otherwise, you´re fine.
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  #3286  
Old 04-20-2018, 05:31 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
The only proof there is says that you are less likely to be right. Statistically, you are smoked.
Which reminds me: Have you found any figures on how many dismemberment cases there were in the 218 years to which you refer?

I say "how many cases there were", when perhaps I should say "how many cases were reported, happen to be available on the Internet and/or found their way into books"... because isn't that what we're really talking about?

Any true figure is likely to be rather higher, whether we're talking about dismemberment or evisceration, unless - with regard to the latter - your figure of "2 per 218 years" came from a 100% accurate source. What was your source for this datum, by the way? Forgive me if you've already referenced it.
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  #3287  
Old 04-20-2018, 06:18 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Yes, it works the other way around.

Similarities will not become umimportant on account of dissimilarities, unless these dissimilarities conclusively prove that the similarities are only coincidental.

Dissimilarities will become unimportant if they can be explained and if there are similarities that tell us that the perceived dissimilarities are of no real importance.

So there is a difference. Which is what I have been banging on about for weeks. And which any person with a minimum of insight into these things will acknowledge.

When you can show me that the dissimilaritites of these cases rule out the importance of the similarities instead of going on about how it MAY have been like this and it MAY have been like that, you have a case.

Until that happens, you don´t.
Well at least you dont resort to being insulting! Thanks for that

You say ‘may’ this and ‘may’ that but your attempts at an explaination for the dissimilarities are full of such hypotheses. Coming up with a ‘possible’ scenario works both ways no matter what the likelihood based on the history of murder.
What if, for example, the murderer of Elizabeth Jackson killed her in a drunken rage. What if he was a butcher or a slaughterman and so was used to blood and gore. What if he decided to do some ripper-type mutilations so that if/when the body was eventually found it might have been marked down as a ripper murder and away from him?
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  #3288  
Old 04-20-2018, 12:27 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Well at least you dont resort to being insulting! Thanks for that

You say ‘may’ this and ‘may’ that but your attempts at an explaination for the dissimilarities are full of such hypotheses. Coming up with a ‘possible’ scenario works both ways no matter what the likelihood based on the history of murder.
What if, for example, the murderer of Elizabeth Jackson killed her in a drunken rage. What if he was a butcher or a slaughterman and so was used to blood and gore. What if he decided to do some ripper-type mutilations so that if/when the body was eventually found it might have been marked down as a ripper murder and away from him?
Hi hs

Of course it’s possible. But I have never heard of a killer trying to make a crime look like another killers work. It’s the stuff of hollywood.

Yes killers stage things so the motive may appear different. But this copy cat idea is mainly fiction. I’ve seen it brought up for victims like McKenzie or pinchin to explain the similarities with the ripper but it’s basically non existent happening.
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #3289  
Old 04-20-2018, 01:04 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Hi hs

Of course it’s possible. But I have never heard of a killer trying to make a crime look like another killers work. It’s the stuff of hollywood.

Yes killers stage things so the motive may appear different. But this copy cat idea is mainly fiction. I’ve seen it brought up for victims like McKenzie or pinchin to explain the similarities with the ripper but it’s basically non existent happening.
Hi Abby,

I know that this is one of the things about me that irritates people(mainly Fish) but the idea of something not occurring in the same way before bothers me very little. Why should it? Things happen for the first time (or the first recorded time.)

I cant help looking at the whole thing from a different viewpoint to Fish. The Torso Murders to me are glaringly different to the ripper murders despite any possible similarities in knife-work. The dissimilarities are more numerate than the similarities. To the observer the ripper series show an obvious connection. No amount of appeals to the history of crime or apparent obsessions with ‘flaps’ (such a vague word) will change this.

I guess ill just have to wait until Fish reveals his link between Lechmere and the Torso’s.
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  #3290  
Old 04-20-2018, 05:47 PM
harry harry is offline
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Fisherman,
Statistics has very little evidential bearing on the crimes.It has even less of an impact in your claim of beyond reasonable doubt,Along with similarities,unlikely duplication,and now statistics,you are scraping the bottom of the barrel.If I am smoked,you are in cinders.
Abby.
And when is belief classed as beyond reasonable doubt? Show me where one killer belief,is greater than a belief in two.Belief equals belief,no more no less.W ould be better if you or Fisherman answered my questions on beyond reasonable doubt.I'll ask again.What element is associated with it?
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