Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - by cobalt 60 minutes ago.
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - by DJA 1 hour and 29 minutes ago.
Scene of the Crimes: Mitre Sq, The demise is almost complete - by c.d. 2 hours ago.
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - by Graham 2 hours ago.
Scene of the Crimes: Mitre Sq, The demise is almost complete - by Herlock Sholmes 3 hours ago.
Visual Media: London 1924 in colour - by Herlock Sholmes 3 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - (8 posts)
Torso Killings: torso maps - (7 posts)
Scene of the Crimes: Mitre Sq, The demise is almost complete - (7 posts)
Visual Media: London 1924 in colour - (6 posts)
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: Lechmere was Jack the Ripper - (6 posts)
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - (5 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #3271  
Old 04-19-2018, 10:26 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 17,351
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Firstly, Jack the Ripper was an eviscerating serial killer, true, and did so to the majority of his victims. The torso killer(s), however, was a dismemberer, who only eviscerated a minority of his victims, and the evisceration was almost certainly a secondary concern in both cases. Thus it is at least two, and probably more, very different "creatures" we're talking about, and they emphatically weren't "doing the same things". Nothing like it.

Secondly, these two (or more) creatures were operating in very different parts of the same city, and the timing is almost certainly a coincidence. When a series (like the torsos) spans nearly a decade and a half or more, it's bound to overlap with something else. Besides, apropos time, there was an entirely different tempo to both series, which again points to separate perpetrators.

Finally, your "argument from uncommonality" is, as I've previously said, a bit of an own goal. But I still won't tell you why.

Edit: By the way, how many cases of dismemberment were there in Britain during those 218 years?
Quality check:

Both killers took out uteri, both killers took away heart and lungs from a victim, both killers cut away noses, both killers opened up abdomens, both killers took away abdominal walls from their vicims, both killers cut the soft parts of their victims necks, both killers attacked prostitutes....

My impression: They did the same things to their victims in many instances.

Your impression: "They emphatically weren´t doing the same things to their victims".

Can you see where this reasoning of yours leaks more than the Titanic...?

I have no idea how many dismemberment cases there were in Britain during the 218 years, I have only seen the statistics for serial killers who dismember. It was never going to be a common thing anyway, least of all if the dismemberment is an offensive one instead of practical - as was the case with the torso killer.
Quick reply to this message
  #3272  
Old 04-19-2018, 10:31 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 17,351
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pcdunn View Post
Agreed.

Why must all of the Ripper murders and all of the Torso Mysteries be the work of the same person? For all we know, perhaps Mary Kelly was killed by the Torsoman, as was Elizabeth Jackson, but the other canonical Ripper victims were killed by someone else.
They MUST not be, but they probably are. It lies in the rarity of the murder type, involving women being taken apart and cut up in pieces.

Only three murders can be described as positively being linked (Chapman, Kelly and Jackson), but some of the rest are extremely likely to also belong, if you ask me.
Quick reply to this message
  #3273  
Old 04-19-2018, 10:35 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 17,351
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
... there are very few similarities between what happened to Kelly and and Jackson.
Both prostitutes.

Both had the soft part of their necks severed.

Both had their abdomens opened up.

Both had their uteri taken out.

Both had their hearts taken out.

Both had one or both lungs taken out.

Both had their abdominal walls cut away in large flaps.

Both had flesh from one buttock cut away.

Both killed in London within a time period of seven months.

That´s how "very few similarities" there are between Kelly and Jackson. I would say that it is a case of gross disinformation to make this claim. And the above list proves my point.

Why deny the perfectly obvious? Why turn whay could be a useful debate into a farce? There were many differences too - but no amount of differences in the world can make the similarities go away!

Last edited by Fisherman : 04-19-2018 at 10:52 PM.
Quick reply to this message
  #3274  
Old 04-19-2018, 11:11 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 17,351
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Why does one half of the ‘evidence’ appeare to trump everytime the other half?

I dont get it.
One further thing:

It is not a case of one part of the evidence trumping the other half every time in cases like these.

If there are very few, very common or no similarities between two victims, then the dissimilarities will normally trump the similarities.

It is only in cases were there are very many similarities, or very specific and unusual similarities, that dissimilarities will not be able to trump them unless the dissimilarities are of a kind that proves different killers. For example, in a British murder series, if we know that the killer X was in Britain when victim A died but not when victim B died, then he cannot be the killer of the latter even he is the proven killer of the former.
However, if the similarities involved are of a totally specific and unusual character, one must predispose a connection anyway, but not with X as the actual killer.
Quick reply to this message
  #3275  
Old 04-19-2018, 11:17 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 10,261
Default

I'm not denying the obvious. Quite the contrary, I'm respecting the facts. Kelly's ENTIRE abdomen was completely laid open in three enormous slabs of flesh from flank to flank, Jackson's only by way of a modest panel made of two strips of flesh cut from her LOWER abdomen. Only a fragment of of the lobe of ONE of Kelly's lungs was torn off, from below, in the process of removing her heart; something very, VERY different, and far more thorough, happened to Jackson.

I could go on, but that'll do for now. The point is that I'm being true to the evidence, Fish, and you're not.
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message
  #3276  
Old 04-20-2018, 12:36 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 17,351
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
I'm not denying the obvious.
Yes, you are. You claim that there are "very few similarities" inbetween Kelly and Jackson, and that is denying the obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Quite the contrary, I'm respecting the facts.
No, Gareth - you are trying to produce alternative facts, and that breaks up rather badly at the seams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Kelly's ENTIRE abdomen was completely laid open in three enormous slabs of flesh from flank to flank, Jackson's only by way of a modest panel made of two strips of flesh cut from her LOWER abdomen. Only a fragment of of the lobe of ONE of Kelly's lungs was torn off, from below, in the process of removing her heart; something very, VERY different, and far more thorough, happened to Jackson.
Here we are! You are beginning your quest for truthfulness by using the term "strips" - a term that was never used by Hebbert, who said "slips" AND "large flaps". Plus the press said that what was found was "the lower part of the abdomen, cut in two", "the abdomen of a woman" etcetera. It may well be, therefore, that the entire lower abdomen was taken away, something that is bolstered by every piece of information we have, but for the wording "slips", that MAY refer to narrower parts - but once again, that is not likely given how the press described them.
One reason for Hebbert using slips (not strips) as well as large flaps may be that he could have lifted the parts into the air, and then they will have looked like slips.
Whichever applies, we can all see that you desperately cling on to YOUR interpretation and you REFUSE to take on board that the flaps are otherwsie described as large and representing the lower abdomen.

That is your take on being honest to the evidence. You are patently so - once you decided which specific part of it to support. It´s an approach that needs to be marked "Danger-Venomous!"

In the same vein, you write that a "fragment" of one of Kellys lung was taken out, something that supposedly dovetails with the reality as described by Bond:
"On opening the thorax it was found that the right lung was minimally adherent by old firm adhesions. The lower part of the lung was broken and torn away."

So the whole lung was almost torn away, but managed to hang on minimally by old adhesions, the result being that the lower part of the lung - quite possibly most of the lung - was taken out.
But in your book, it was a fragment only. More evidence of how you treat the facts.

You also say that what happened to Jackson "was very different". Yes, in the respect that both lungs were removed. That is different in quantity. But how does it differ in character? Are not both women examples of a killer who attacked and removed lungs or parts of them? How is that not a similarity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
I could go on, but that'll do for now. The point is that I'm being true to the evidence, Fish, and you're not.
Yes, you could go on - and you would have it all flung back in your face, revealing the same thing over and over again: You are being VERY economical with the truth: And you have the audacity to claim that I am not true to the evidence. Oh, the irony!

Here is what you think, Gareth. Correct me if I am wrong:

In the city of London, back in the late 1800:s, there lived two evil men. One of them was a raving madman who would attack and kill women out in the street, throwing any risk to the wind, while then other was a sly planner, a devious and deceitful man who took great care not to reveal himself and who wanted to hide his killings.

Peculiarly, they both severed the soft parts of their victims necks, they both engaged in eviscerations but also in cutting away other parts of the bodies, they both took out uteri, lungs and hearts, they both opened up the abdomens of their victims and they both cut away the abdominal walls of victims in what was described as large flaps.

This, however, they did for wildly differing reasons, and it only a coincidence that they happened to end up doing these things. A mere coincidence, nothing else.

That is about it, is it not?

Last edited by Fisherman : 04-20-2018 at 12:51 AM.
Quick reply to this message
  #3277  
Old 04-20-2018, 03:17 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: The West Midlands
Posts: 2,261
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Nope. Doesn´t work, I´m afraid. Dissimilarities can never make similarities go away, as I just told Herlock.
Yup, it only works the other way around
__________________
Regards

Herlock






"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"
Quick reply to this message
  #3278  
Old 04-20-2018, 03:38 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,352
Default

That there was even two serial killers, forget all the other similarities, operating at the same time and place, at that period of time should give one pause.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message
  #3279  
Old 04-20-2018, 04:08 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 10,261
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Yup, it only works the other way around
Even when the dissimilarities are objective facts, and the "similarities" are subjective and/or exaggerated, it seems.
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message
  #3280  
Old 04-20-2018, 04:35 AM
harry harry is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,811
Default

That two serial killers were operating at the same time is a reasonable belief.
It is my belief.
What proof exists that I am wrong?
Quick reply to this message
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.