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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #3181  
Old 04-17-2018, 03:46 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
In post 3172, I say that "Hebbert said that the four murders were VERY similar "in almost every aspect", and that he was in little doubt that they had the same originator."

That should be amended - he did not use the word "aspect" but instead "respect", and he said this in a comparison of the two later murders in the series to the two first.

He also never worded himself with a phrase containing the words that he was in little doubt that it was the same originator in each case. What he said was that:

"In the last volume of Reports I was able to give a description of two cases of mutilation which occurred duering 1887 and 1888. I now take the opportunity of recounting two more instances of mutilation which have happened during the present year. In almost every respect they are similar to the first two cases, and appear to belong to a series of murders and dismemberment by the same hand ..."

and

"...The mode of dismemberment and mutilation was in all similar, and showed considerable skill in execution, and it is a fair presumption from the facts that the same man committed all the four murders."

So instead of saying that he had little doubt that the same man committed all four murders, he said that it is a fair presumption from the facts that the same man committed all the four murders.

Wich adds up to more or less the same - Hebbert believed that there was just the one killer - but fair is fair!
Hi fish
Thanks for providing this. It’s as clear as the nose on your face that he thought they were the same man.

Us arm chair detectives can bang on it all we like, but I’ll go with the dr who was there at the time!
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  #3182  
Old 04-17-2018, 03:55 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Us arm chair detectives can bang on it all we like, but I’ll go with the dr who was there at the time!
I'd prefer to have heard from a criminologist, not from a doctor who was naturally focusing on the method of dismemberment rather than the bigger picture.
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  #3183  
Old 04-17-2018, 04:14 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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What about the words of Bond, who was also there, and said of the Ripper series;

"In each case the mutilation was inflicted by a person who had no scientific nor anatomical knowledge. In my opinion he does not even posess the technical knowledge of a butcher or horse slaughterer or any person accustomed to cut up dead animals"

That doesn't sound like someone who thought the two series were perpetrated by the same man.
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  #3184  
Old 04-17-2018, 04:38 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
What about the words of Bond, who was also there, and said of the Ripper series;

"In each case the mutilation was inflicted by a person who had no scientific nor anatomical knowledge. In my opinion he does not even posess the technical knowledge of a butcher or horse slaughterer or any person accustomed to cut up dead animals"

That doesn't sound like someone who thought the two series were perpetrated by the same man.
Good point, well made. Of those that were accustomed to cutting up dead animals, here's some food for thought:

Swanson reported having had the police visit 76 butchers and slaughterers in Whitechapel/Aldgate, interviewing proprietors and enquiring into the character of the "servants" (presumably employees/apprentices) who'd worked with them over the past 6 months. Even assuming that each butcher/knacker employed only one other person, that makes a total of 152 active or recently-employed professionals in the area, at least, not including those businesses with two or more other employees, nor those who fell outside Swanson's 6-month cutoff.

With that in mind, I shouldn't be surprised if there were easily more than 300 men with current/recent experience of butchery/knackering in this part of East London alone. Not to mention retired professionals, those who'd moved on to other jobs, or cooks and private individuals who knew how to prepare a pig, sheep or lamb.
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Last edited by Sam Flynn : 04-17-2018 at 04:41 AM.
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  #3185  
Old 04-17-2018, 04:40 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
What about the words of Bond, who was also there, and said of the Ripper series;

"In each case the mutilation was inflicted by a person who had no scientific nor anatomical knowledge. In my opinion he does not even posess the technical knowledge of a butcher or horse slaughterer or any person accustomed to cut up dead animals"

That doesn't sound like someone who thought the two series were perpetrated by the same man.
Hi jr
Yes, It’s clear that Pretty much no one thought the two series were linked at the time.
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #3186  
Old 04-17-2018, 05:48 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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Not to interrupt the current topic, but the argument goes that just because something is unprecedented or infinitesimally unlikely, doesn't mean it couldn't happen. In this case, two gruesome murderers operating in the same patch of London.

However, doesn't that slice both ways (no pun intended) when it comes to the deviation in MO/signature? Just because it's rare/unheard of for serial killers to switch back and forth, doesn't mean it didn't happen in this instance.
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  #3187  
Old 04-17-2018, 06:07 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Hi jr
Yes, It’s clear that Pretty much no one thought the two series were linked at the time.
Hi Abby
Including Hebbert who is probably one of the only people actually involved to have made a direct comparison:

"During the years 1887-1889, a series of murders was committed in London, by unknown and unidentified assassin. The victims were thirteen women of the class of prostitutes. These outrages were done by more than one man, the post-mortem examination showing very clearly that in one series the motive was the desctruction of the identity of the person, and concealment of the crime. In the second, savage and singularly purposeless mutilation. The examination also proved the difference in the skill and intention of the operator. In the first series, as I may put it, the women's bodies were skillfully divided into sections such as might be done by a butcher or a hunter, evidently for the purpose of easy carriage and distribution, as the different parts were found in various districts, some in Regent's Park, Chelsea, Battersea, Isle of Dogs. even, in one case, the vaults of New Scotland Yard. In the other series, the women were horribly and unmercifully mutilated. Even the internal organs had been removed and taken away. It was in the last series that the theory of satyriasis was strengthened by the post-mortem examinations."

Alfred Hebbert 1908
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Last edited by Debra A : 04-17-2018 at 06:11 AM.
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  #3188  
Old 04-17-2018, 06:23 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debra A View Post
Hi Abby
Including Hebbert who is probably one of the only people actually involved to have made a direct comparison:

"During the years 1887-1889, a series of murders was committed in London, by unknown and unidentified assassin. The victims were thirteen women of the class of prostitutes. These outrages were done by more than one man, the post-mortem examination showing very clearly that in one series the motive was the desctruction of the identity of the person, and concealment of the crime. In the second, savage and singularly purposeless mutilation. The examination also proved the difference in the skill and intention of the operator. In the first series, as I may put it, the women's bodies were skillfully divided into sections such as might be done by a butcher or a hunter, evidently for the purpose of easy carriage and distribution, as the different parts were found in various districts, some in Regent's Park, Chelsea, Battersea, Isle of Dogs. even, in one case, the vaults of New Scotland Yard. In the other series, the women were horribly and unmercifully mutilated. Even the internal organs had been removed and taken away. It was in the last series that the theory of satyriasis was strengthened by the post-mortem examinations."

Alfred Hebbert 1908
Hi Debs!
Yup and thanks for posting!!!

and thats the cunundrum isnt it? clearly the torsos were linked at the time by the same man, but not the torsos and the ripper murders.

yet there are obvious similarities (and of course differences) between the series that make many knowledgable folks on here think that they could be the same man.

would love to see a book on it! (or at least the torsos) hint hint ; )
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #3189  
Old 04-17-2018, 06:28 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
I'd prefer to have heard from a criminologist, not from a doctor who was naturally focusing on the method of dismemberment rather than the bigger picture.
HI Sam
Not sure if the police at the time qualify as a criminologist in your book, but they clearly also thought the torsos were the work of one man.

But actually it would be great to have a modern forensic pathologist, criminologist, etc. do a thorough examination and analysis comparing the Ripper and torso cases to see what they would think of the possibility (or not) of the one man theory!
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #3190  
Old 04-17-2018, 06:32 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
Not to interrupt the current topic, but the argument goes that just because something is unprecedented or infinitesimally unlikely, doesn't mean it couldn't happen. In this case, two gruesome murderers operating in the same patch of London.

However, doesn't that slice both ways (no pun intended) when it comes to the deviation in MO/signature? Just because it's rare/unheard of for serial killers to switch back and forth, doesn't mean it didn't happen in this instance.
it does in my book.

and if you look at the history of serial killers the latter seems the more common.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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