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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #3161  
Old 04-16-2018, 10:07 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryd View Post
Hi Joshua,

Not sure, yet. I'll have to think about that one, Joshua.

Are you implying it was part of the procedure in cutting up a body?
I don't think there would necessarily have been a set procedure for cutting up bodies (although perhaps, as Forbes Winslow thought, the way butchers joint animals in a consistent manner might be observable on a human corpse), but it does show that there was more than one post-mortem abdominal mutilator around at the time. And so possibly more than two.
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  #3162  
Old 04-16-2018, 11:15 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
I don't think there would necessarily have been a set procedure for cutting up bodies (although perhaps, as Forbes Winslow thought, the way butchers joint animals in a consistent manner might be observable on a human corpse), but it does show that there was more than one post-mortem abdominal mutilator around at the time. And so possibly more than two.
yup absolutely
but we also KNOW that she was doing it for practical reasons, and specifically to cut the body into smaller parts to boil and burn.

and obviously that she wasnt the torso killer.
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  #3163  
Old 04-16-2018, 12:59 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
yup absolutely
but we also KNOW that she was doing it for practical reasons, and specifically to cut the body into smaller parts to boil and burn.

and obviously that she wasnt the torso killer.
On this note, I found a Wikipedia site about crime in Britain. Amongst other things, they have listed British serial killers. There were four of them in the 19:th century, three between 1900-1950, twelve between 1950 and 2000 and so far there have been two serial killers in Britain under the 21:st century.

I don´t know how reliable the list is (the Torso killer is not included - maybe the have him bundled up with the Ripper... ), but if it is anything to go by, then we have 21 serial killers over a period of 218 years, that is to say roughly one every ten years.

It is a background that is eminently suited to point out how unlikely it is that two serial killers would surface simultaneously and in the same city, both of them being mutilators and eviscerators, and both of them cutting away abdominal walls from their victims - for example.

The list can be found - together with a lot of other information - on the link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...United_Kingdom
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  #3164  
Old 04-16-2018, 01:39 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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A check in the archives for Sweden reveals that there has been seven serial killers here since 1900. Roughly one every twentieth year.

They are rare creatures - luckily.
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  #3165  
Old 04-16-2018, 01:52 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Next check - out of the serial killers listed in Britain over the last 218 years, how many are proven eviscerators?

I may have missed something, but it seems that three serial killers only have engaged in proven eviscerations:
Jack the Ripper
The Torso killer
Dennis Nilsen

And two of them supposedly coexisted in the same town at the same time, inflicting many elements of the same type of damage on their victims.

I know that statistics are not always useful to lean against, but I still find this very telling.

Have I missed out on any other eviscerating serial killer in Britain? Can anybody help out?
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  #3166  
Old 04-16-2018, 01:55 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
On this note, I found a Wikipedia site about crime in Britain. Amongst other things, they have listed British serial killers. There were four of them in the 19:th century, three between 1900-1950, twelve between 1950 and 2000 and so far there have been two serial killers in Britain under the 21:st century.

I don´t know how reliable the list is (the Torso killer is not included - maybe the have him bundled up with the Ripper... ), but if it is anything to go by, then we have 21 serial killers over a period of 218 years, that is to say roughly one every ten years.

It is a background that is eminently suited to point out how unlikely it is that two serial killers would surface simultaneously and in the same city, both of them being mutilators and eviscerators, and both of them cutting away abdominal walls from their victims - for example.

The list can be found - together with a lot of other information - on the link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...United_Kingdom
HI Fish
Thanks for posting. Very interesting. a few take aways:

How rare serial killers were in the 19th century.
How rare they are in England.
How unknown is the torso murders.

Now I'm sure there are more they missed but Its pretty telling.

Also, sadly how much less rare they are here in the US.
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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #3167  
Old 04-16-2018, 01:57 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Next check - out of the serial killers listed in Britain over the last 218 years, how many are proven eviscerators?

I may have missed something, but it seems that three serial killers only have engaged in proven eviscerations:
Jack the Ripper
The Torso killer
Dennis Nilsen

And two of them supposedly coexisted in the same town at the same time, inflicting many elements of the same type of damage on their victims.

I know that statistics are not always useful to lean against, but I still find this very telling.

Have I missed out on any other eviscerating serial killer in Britain? Can anybody help out?
sorry I cant -Im more familiar with SKs in my country.

But I think this re iterates how rare they were- and bolsters my leaning to that they were the same man.
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #3168  
Old 04-16-2018, 02:25 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Next check - out of the serial killers listed in Britain over the last 218 years, how many are proven eviscerators?
Jesus wept. The torso killer(s) was no more an "eviscerator" than Jack the Ripper was a "neck cutter".

Oh, and by the way, neither was Dennis Nilsen a "proven eviscerator". True, he emptied the body cavities of his victims, but this was in order to get rid of the gunk and to make the cutting up and disposal of body parts easier and less messy; ditto the torso killer on just the one occasion, and then he only took out the intestines, presumably because they'd dangle out of the hole he'd made if he left them there (not nice). These dismemberers evidently only eviscerated for practical reasons, not because they had a fixation with the contents of their victims' abdomen... which is categorically what Jack the Ripper was all about.
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  #3169  
Old 04-16-2018, 02:57 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Jesus wept. The torso killer(s) was no more an "eviscerator" than Jack the Ripper was a "neck cutter".

Oh, and by the way, neither was Dennis Nilsen a "proven eviscerator". True, he emptied the body cavities of his victims, but this was in order to get rid of the gunk and to make the cutting up and disposal of body parts easier and less messy; ditto the torso killer on just the one occasion, and then he only took out the intestines, presumably because they'd dangle out of the hole he'd made if he left them there (not nice). These dismemberers evidently only eviscerated for practical reasons, not because they had a fixation with the contents of their victims' abdomen... which is categorically what Jack the Ripper was all about.
Hi Sam
I think you are correct re nilsen. Im no expert on Nilsen but it does seem it was done to help facilitate dismemberment and disposal of the body.

point taken.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #3170  
Old 04-16-2018, 06:22 PM
harry harry is offline
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How strange that the beyond reasonable doubt keeps cropping up,and that apparently Hebberts reasonings give credence to it. What proofs are there.
Hebbert writes there were similarities,nothing more.Yes there were similarities,but as has been pointed out there were dissimilarities of which he says nothing.Does that mean we have to ignore them?That they do not count?
He also writes that a supposition can be made that the same person was responsible.He does not claim proof of it,or that it is beyong reasonable doubt.
Just that it can be supposed/assumed.No proofs it was the same saws or knives used on each and every victim,or even the same manner of death.Or that every death was a murder.
Yet we are expected to accept interpretations of his writings goes beyond a reasonable doubt or belief.

STRANGE.
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