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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

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  #51  
Old 02-19-2018, 11:34 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is online now
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Here's another example of "1st", meaning the access applies to the 1st floor (Ground) only.



Blue circle = 1st
Red circle = 3rd.

The reason '1st' floor is used as opposed to Ground floor is because Goad was from Canada and used American notation throughout his maps.
Goad was born in UK but pursued his profession in Canada, before returning to the UK to produce these maps.
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  #52  
Old 02-19-2018, 11:44 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardh View Post
Would that be an original door, Jon? and would this suggest a likely place for the stairs?
As this map is dated 1890, all we can say is that the passage door existed in 1890, whether it was original at point of construction, or added sometime prior to 1890 is not possible to say from this map.
Front and rear access doors & windows are assumed (according to the Key), which is why they are not shown.

I used a smaller red circle to identify what might be Kelly's door. It is difficult to say for certain, but there appears to be a very small erasure at the point where I drew the smaller red circle, which 'may' be consistent with her side door being a revision from the original plan.
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  #53  
Old 02-19-2018, 11:48 AM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is offline
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Hi Richard,

As this is a British plan, I would think it follows British floor notations and that the notation reads "GF." If it read 1st, [meaning 1st floor] Prater's door would be a third of the way up the building.

Of course, we could all be wrong. The door might be indicated by the slash mark "/", with the "ST" or "GF" meaning something completely different.

This Goad legend is not helpful in this matter.

Name:  GOAD LEGEND.jpg
Views: 406
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Rob Clack's our man for this.

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Simon

Last edited by Simon Wood : 02-19-2018 at 12:02 PM.
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  #54  
Old 02-19-2018, 12:36 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is online now
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Simon, you need to take this to a draftsman. You are completely mistaken.

There are several Keys to the notations used, today we would call it a Legend or Table.
Here the "1st" as a notation is explained as applicable to openings in walls.

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  #55  
Old 02-19-2018, 01:18 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is online now
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I'm not sure if this will come out large enough, but on the right side under FLOORS, the first line reads:
"1. 2. 3. 3 1/2 &c. on buildings are number of stories above ground
(3 1/2 = 3 floors & attic)"




This is informing the reader that the ground floor is the first floor.
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  #56  
Old 02-19-2018, 06:24 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Wood View Post
Hi Richard,

As this is a British plan, I would think it follows British floor notations....
I understand that Simon, but the Key uses "stories" (American) for "storeys" (British), and "colors" (American), for "colours" (British).

I agree to what we would 'expect', but we do not always have what we expect.
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  #57  
Old 02-19-2018, 07:36 PM
DJA DJA is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Take it to another draftsman, they will only tell you what I am telling you.
OK,so the photos lied,the door, oops opening to 13 was in the passage, and the door to Prater's stairs was half way along the passage.

Strongly suspect that the Goad people were in a bit of a hurry to depart the premises.

Fire map ...... they could all burn in Hell
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  #58  
Old 02-19-2018, 10:15 PM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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Wick,

During the Kate Marshall murder case the floor above ground level is referred to as the first floor at #26 Dorset Street and indicated by the fact Davis Roberts said he went to the landing. No?

DAVID ROBERTS . I am by trade a painter and decorator, of 26, Dorset Street, Spitalfields—on November 26th I was living there, in the first-floor back room, with my wife, the deceased woman, and her sister, the prisoner—they carried on the same business of whip-making—we had all been living together in the same room for some time—on Saturday morning, November 26th, I left home about half-past seven a.m., leaving my wife and the prisoner in the room with my little boy, three years old—I returned about half-past six or a quarter to seven in the evening—only my wife and the child were then at home—my wife was sober at that time—she went out at about a quarter past seven, leaving me and the child in the room—she came back about twelve with the prisoner—they brought with them a quart can full of beer—my wife gave me a glass of it, and I drank it while I was in bed—then the two started quarrelling about the profits of the work—they kept on quarrelling, and the prisoner rushed on my wife—I got out of bed—they fell against the table, over-turned it, and both fell on the bed, and then on the floor—I parted them, they left one another, and I went to my bed again—the child was a bit fidgety and crying, and I cuddled it in my arms—the women kept on arguing the point—the prisoner then got hold of part of a broken jug, and dashed it against the window—I got out of bed, and she deliberately
See original
rushed at my wife and said, "You thing, I will give you something for this," at the same time rushing at her and striking her a blow in the right breast—I did not see anything in her hand at the time, afterwards I did—she was facing her at the time—my wife turned round and said to me, "Dave, she has stabbed me"—I laid the child down in the bed, and rushed to the prisoner, and claimed her by her two wrists, and struggled with her till I got her out of the door on to the landing, where I kicked the partition and called for help—(referring to the plan) this shows the position


Then this:

I kicked against this partition, which separates the witness Amory's room from the staircase; the partition ends at a small room called the storeroom—Amory came out of his room—during the struggle with the prisoner my wife came out of her room and fell against me, I was standing up, struggling with the prisoner; I had still got her by the wrists—I then let go of her left hand and secured the knife from her right hand, and handed it to Amory—we were then on the ground to-gether—we fell against Amory's door, we could not get any further, and we both fell on the ground there—I took the knife out of her right hand—I could not say whether there was anything on it, I was so confused—I felt it, it was a bit sticky like—a woman came out of Amory's room, his wife, or the woman he lives with, Mary Johnson, and another woman, I don't know her name—I saw the policeman arrive—I said to him, "Take this woman in charge, she has stabbed my wife"—the prisoner said, "Good God, let me see her;" or "let me kiss her"—the policeman said, "Hold her tight while I go and alarm another constable"——he went down the stairs and blew his whistle, and another constable was on the spot—I was not dressed, I was in my shirt, just as I jumped out of bed—

Last edited by jerryd : 02-19-2018 at 10:26 PM.
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  #59  
Old 02-19-2018, 10:24 PM
Robert St Devil Robert St Devil is offline
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It says it in Simon's post (1st line):

Figures on buildings - 1, 1 1/2, 2, 2 1/2, etc - are stories in height counting from level of ground.

I read it to say that here was an opening in the brick work on the ground level (1st).
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  #60  
Old 02-19-2018, 11:11 PM
Robert St Devil Robert St Devil is offline
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In any photo of No 26 off Dorset Street, two windows are obvious in the 2nd floor (1st storey). Do these windows belong to the same room? In other words, does the 1st storey front room run the entire width of the building (similar to No. 13)?

If so, could this be an indication that the second room on the 1st storey (the middle room) ran lengthwise between the front and back rooms; and, was located along the chimney side of the house?

I'm having to rethink the staircase placement, dja.
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