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Torso Killings: torso maps - by Abby Normal 5 minutes ago.
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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Hutchinson, George

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  #131  
Old 12-14-2017, 08:49 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
But if there was shelter where he was, leaving it to walk the streets makes less sense.
I daresay he could have crashed out in the arched passageway at the entrance to Miller's Court if he'd felt so inclined. That way, he could have found shelter from the elements AND kept an eye on Kelly's room at the same time. He might even have caught the killer as an added bonus
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  #132  
Old 12-14-2017, 09:04 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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Wasn't it Maurice Lewis who claimed to have known Kelly 5 years? According to Abberline's 12th Nov report, Hutchinson had known her for "about 3 years".
That said, most of your point stands.

Incidentally, Abberline also tells us the reason George gave for watching the pair;

"An important statement has been made by a man named George Hutchinson which I forward herewith. I have interrogated him this evening and I am of the opinion his statement is true. He informed me that he had occasionally given the deceased a few shillings, and that he had known her about 3 years. Also that he was surprised to see a man so well dressed in her company which caused him to watch them."

If Abberline had winkled a more convincing reason out of Hutchinson, I'm sure he'd have informed his superiors.
Hi JR
I think your right-hutch said he knew her for several or about three years.

I think this part of his story is true. to say you know someone who you really don't know at all is way to risky a lie to be found out. especially to say you've known them for at least a couple years.

too many things to bust you on that if not true.

Howver, I doubt he even saw her that night (but was there). but best liars weave elements of truth into there story.
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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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  #133  
Old 12-14-2017, 09:07 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
I daresay he could have crashed out in the arched passageway at the entrance to Miller's Court if he'd felt so inclined. That way, he could have found shelter from the elements AND kept an eye on Kelly's room at the same time. He might even have caught the killer as an added bonus
yup-its probably the real reason he was there looking for Mary that night-looking for a place to crash.
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #134  
Old 12-14-2017, 09:20 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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yup-its probably the real reason he was there looking for Mary that night-looking for a place to crash.
If he was there at all, which I doubt. Like I suggested, what kind of idiot would wander the streets all night in the rain, having spent 45 minutes in or around a courtyard that had a covered passageway leading to it?
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  #135  
Old 12-14-2017, 10:53 AM
Robert St Devil Robert St Devil is offline
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Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
Don't forget, J. Best and John Gardner also described a well-dressed individual with a similar appearance to Astrakhan Man seen with Stride on the night of her murder.
Excellent point!
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  #136  
Old 12-14-2017, 11:04 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Don't forget, J. Best and John Gardner also described a well-dressed individual with a similar appearance to Astrakhan Man seen with Stride on the night of her murder.
Respectably dressed, at any rate. Whether he had a similar appearance to Mr Astrakhan is hard to tell because, despite Best and Gardner having apparently spent some time standing in this man's vicinity - even exchanging some words with him - the sum total of B&G's combined testimony is nowhere near as detailed as George Hutchinson's.
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  #137  
Old 12-14-2017, 12:39 PM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Which doesn't quite square with his rather creepy description of Astrakhan Man - "he looked at me stern", "very surly looking", "Jewish/foreign appearance", "small parcel with a kind of strap around it", etc. This at the height of the Ripper scare, and Hutch thought this guy was nothing to worry about? Hard to believe.
Thanks Sam, hard to believe someone didn't see that earlier. All he said was he watched, why he watched is up for grabs.....and the above does speak volumes. As I said earlier, his statement took someone unknown to everyone, in particular the Police....and made him someone Mary knew and was friendly with. None of which is substantiated by anyone.

Caz, had Hutchinson come forward with his statement on Friday night, would there have been a Pardon issuance for Accomplices on Saturday? I'm sure you know this is rhetorical. The answer is no.
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  #138  
Old 12-14-2017, 12:47 PM
rjpalmer rjpalmer is online now
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Hi Abby. Don't buy it.

This Astrakhan man was so wildly improbable (?) that an Inspector with many years in H-Division--and thus a local knowledge that dwarfs the collective wisdom of three dozen Ripperologists--accepted him without irony, dozens of hardened journalists accepted him, and twice he was featured on the front of the Illustrated Police News without a single howl of laughter. Four years later some even had a name for him: Frederick Deeming.

https://blog.findmypast.com/ripper-s...406076318.html

Clearly, someone forgot to tell Freakish Fred (who dropped his aitches) that he was an 'ighly improbable dresser.

So what gives?

Only our impressions.

No, Mr. Astrakhan was not impossible nor improbable. The contemporaries knew their water; they swam in it. Mr. A only became impossible and improbable in the late 1980s when the 'profilers' took over--that and the exaggerated image of the East End as a relentless stage of continuous squalor and evil, so near and dear to the heart of Ripper historians.

I remember a line of a black comic in the U.S.; "go to the ghetto, step off the bus, gonna get stabbed."

[Hint: he didn't mean it: he was making fun of the exaggerated view of the ghetto, as viewed by affluent whites]. Imagine! Some toffs wander into the ghetto and don't even get killed!

Whitechapel Road 1868:

http://jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=22435

Q. Why does the artist include so many well-dressed dandies and dudes walking up Whitechapel Road?

Because, the fact is, the poorer areas of a city are ALWAYS filled with overdressed people: pimps, street gamblers, bully boys, those who like to lord over the impoverished, and even those who merely have the Jesse Jackson/Malcolm X dignity of "you can put me in the slums, but you can't put the slums in me."

Sometimes, the most overdressed man in the world is the man born in the slums--he has the most to prove.

If I was Fred Abberline I would be very worried that this particular man existed.
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  #139  
Old 12-14-2017, 01:09 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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Originally Posted by rjpalmer View Post
Hi Abby. Don't buy it.

This Astrakhan man was so wildly improbable (?) that an Inspector with many years in H-Division--and thus a local knowledge that dwarfs the collective wisdom of three dozen Ripperologists--accepted him without irony, dozens of hardened journalists accepted him, and twice he was featured on the front of the Illustrated Police News without a single howl of laughter. Four years later some even had a name for him: Frederick Deeming.

https://blog.findmypast.com/ripper-s...406076318.html

Clearly, someone forgot to tell Freakish Fred (who dropped his aitches) that he was an 'ighly improbable dresser.

So what gives?

Only our impressions.

No, Mr. Astrakhan was not impossible nor improbable. The contemporaries knew their water; they swam in it. Mr. A only became impossible and improbable in the late 1980s when the 'profilers' took over--that and the exaggerated image of the East End as a relentless stage of continuous squalor and evil, so near and dear to the heart of Ripper historians.

I remember a line of a black comic in the U.S.; "go to the ghetto, step off the bus, gonna get stabbed."

[Hint: he didn't mean it: he was making fun of the exaggerated view of the ghetto, as viewed by affluent whites]. Imagine! Some toffs wander into the ghetto and don't even get killed!

Whitechapel Road 1868:

http://jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=22435

Q. Why does the artist include so many well-dressed dandies and dudes walking up Whitechapel Road?

Because, the fact is, the poorer areas of a city are ALWAYS filled with overdressed people: pimps, street gamblers, bully boys, those who like to lord over the impoverished, and even those who merely have the Jesse Jackson/Malcolm X dignity of "you can put me in the slums, but you can't put the slums in me."

Sometimes, the most overdressed man in the world is the man born in the slums--he has the most to prove.

If I was Fred Abberline I would be very worried that this particular man existed.
so worried that later when explaining at length who his favored suspect was, George Chapman, he never mentions hutch or his suspect, despite the fact that chapman actually matched Amans description. and instead opts for the witnesses who saw the peaked cap man.

I don't doubt that someone of Amans appearance could have been in WC then, just hutchs ridiculous detailed description of him and the rest of the circs surrounding it.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #140  
Old 12-14-2017, 01:12 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
If he was there at all, which I doubt. Like I suggested, what kind of idiot would wander the streets all night in the rain, having spent 45 minutes in or around a courtyard that had a covered passageway leading to it?
hi Sam
so you don't think he was waiting man as seen by Lewis?
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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