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  • #16
    Hi Wooc. Yes, in 1881, Turner and Martha would have had her kids part of the time. But in 1888, that wasn't the case. I just don't see why or how you settled on Martha's kids as her killers. It just doesn't fit with her life at the time of the murder, the murder location, the condition of her corpse when found, or the post mortem evidence. You will have a hard sell on this one.

    Yours truly,

    Tom Wescott

    Comment


    • #17
      Hi Woocus,

      Welcome to the Boards,

      Martha's two sons were Frederick John (born 1871) and Charles Henry, born in the following year. I can't find either boy in the school lists on Ancestry.

      Regards, Bridewell.
      I won't always agree but I'll try not to be disagreeable.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
        Hi Woocus,

        Welcome to the Boards,

        Martha's two sons were Frederick John (born 1871) and Charles Henry, born in the following year. I can't find either boy in the school lists on Ancestry.

        Regards, Bridewell.
        Thanks for that. Firstly, I may have been rather presumptious in naming the brothers as the perpetrators with no viable evidence, so I should apologise for that.
        I've subsequently found out that one brother possibly moved to Wales and had a family, the other, possibly moved overseas to America(?) - neither proven.
        I am convinced that whoever murdered Martha had a highly personal agenda - which is corroborated by the extent of the stabbing, being specific in body location, as opposed to a nutter stabbing in a frenzy.
        I find nothing that says that the brothers were living in a stabilized environment, empirically, it's far more likely they were living in penury.
        That doesn't make them murderers, I agree.
        I make a calculated assumption that the way Martha was murdered, tells of her being immobilised from behind, and stabbed from the front - therefore 2 perpetrators. This method is also evident in at least the next two murders.
        I propose that the perpretators of Martha's murder were completely overlooked in the initial police investigation, they believed themselves to be beyond suspicion, and this led them to consider the next murder.

        Comment


        • #19
          Frederick John Tabram
          Born 1870 St Saviours, Southwark

          Married 1890 in Pontypridd, Wales to Ann Thomas

          1871 census:
          20 Marshall P(lace), St George, London Road
          Head: Henry Tabram aged 35 born Whitechapel - Furniture porter
          Wife: Martha Tabram aged 21 born Southwark
          Children:
          Henry Tabram aged 10
          Frederick aged 1 month
          Both born in Southwark

          1881 census:
          Workhouse, 35 Thomas Street, Whitechapel
          Inmates:
          Martha Tabran (sic) aged 30 born Borough, Surrey - Flower hawker
          Frederick Tabran aged 8
          Charles Tabran aged 7
          Both born Borough

          1891 census:
          3 Llewelyns Row, Ystradyfodwg, Glamorgan
          Head: Frederick J Tabram aged 22 born London - Coal miner
          Wife: Ann Tabram aged 21 born Machynlleth

          1901 census:
          22 Park Terrace, Ystradyfodwg, Glamorgan
          Head: Fred. J Tabram aged 32 born London - Coal hewer
          Wife: Anne Tabram aged 31 born born Montgomery
          Children:
          Henry L Tabram aged 9
          Elizabeth M Tabram aged 6
          William C Tabram aged 2
          All born Ystradfodwg

          1911 census:
          6 East Street, Abertillery, Monmouth
          Head: Frederick John Tabram aged 42 born London - Coal Miner Hewer
          Wife: Ann Tabram aged 41 born Monmouthshire
          Children:
          Henry Lewis Tabram aged 19 - Coal Miner Hewer
          Elizabeth Mary Tabram aged 17
          William Charles Tabram aged 12
          Deborah Tabram aged 10
          All born in Glamorgan

          Years married: 19
          Children born: 5
          Children living: 4

          Comment


          • #20
            [QUOTE=Chris Scott;243326]Frederick John Tabram
            Born 1870 St Saviours, Southwark

            Married 1890 in Pontypridd, Wales to Ann Thomas

            Thanks for that, Chris, pretty much tells me this brother was not overly educated. Now for the other brother, lets guess he left for (America) pretty soon after December 1888. Need some proof.

            Comment


            • #21
              I know this is an old thread, but I found this :


              Private Charles Henry Tabram/Tabrum (c.1873-1956)
              ·Son of Henry Tabrum and Martha White (c.1851-?) of the Parish of St.
              Saviour, Southwark, London, Surrey, England.
              ·British Birth Registration suggests Charles Tabrum was born about 1973 in
              Southwark.
              ·On the 1881 Census Returns for Tower Hamlets, London, Charles, his
              mother, listed as a Flower Hawker, and a younger brother are living in the
              Whitechapel Workhouse.
              ·In 1887, Charles Henry Tabrum was a member of a part of 'Home Children'
              from the National Boys Refuge, Great Queen Street, London, sent to the
              Shaftesbury Boys Home in Hamilton, Ontario.

              ·He enlisted in Hamilton on 28 July 1915 and was assigned to the C.E.F. 76th
              Battalion.
              ·He was sent to England May 1916 and to France before the end of the year.
              ·On his return, Charles Tabrum married a widow, Berta Seifert-Wilson of
              Hamilton and became a well-known city gardener.
              ·Died on 18 October 1956, aged 83 years. Buried in the Veterans Section,
              Woodland Cemetery, Hamilton.

              Comment


              • #22
                I doubt Charlie was born in 1973.

                2nd dot point.
                G U T

                There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by GUT View Post
                  I doubt Charlie was born in 1973.

                  2nd dot point.

                  Yeah, its clearly a typo of '1873'.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Ausgirl View Post
                    Yeah, its clearly a typo of '1873'.
                    Just thought it was funny.
                    G U T

                    There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Chris Scott View Post
                      Frederick John Tabram
                      Born 1870 St Saviours, Southwark

                      Married 1890 in Pontypridd, Wales to Ann Thomas

                      1871 census:
                      20 Marshall P(lace), St George, London Road
                      Head: Henry Tabram aged 35 born Whitechapel - Furniture porter
                      Wife: Martha Tabram aged 21 born Southwark
                      Children:
                      Henry Tabram aged 10
                      Frederick aged 1 month
                      Both born in Southwark

                      1881 census:
                      Workhouse, 35 Thomas Street, Whitechapel
                      Inmates:
                      Martha Tabran (sic) aged 30 born Borough, Surrey - Flower hawker
                      Frederick Tabran aged 8
                      Charles Tabran aged 7
                      Both born Borough

                      1891 census:
                      3 Llewelyns Row, Ystradyfodwg, Glamorgan
                      Head: Frederick J Tabram aged 22 born London - Coal miner
                      Wife: Ann Tabram aged 21 born Machynlleth

                      1901 census:
                      22 Park Terrace, Ystradyfodwg, Glamorgan
                      Head: Fred. J Tabram aged 32 born London - Coal hewer
                      Wife: Anne Tabram aged 31 born born Montgomery
                      Children:
                      Henry L Tabram aged 9
                      Elizabeth M Tabram aged 6
                      William C Tabram aged 2
                      All born Ystradfodwg


                      1911 census:
                      6 East Street, Abertillery, Monmouth
                      Head: Frederick John Tabram aged 42 born London - Coal Miner Hewer
                      Wife: Ann Tabram aged 41 born Monmouthshire
                      Children:
                      Henry Lewis Tabram aged 19 - Coal Miner Hewer
                      Elizabeth Mary Tabram aged 17
                      William Charles Tabram aged 12
                      Deborah Tabram aged 10
                      All born in Glamorgan


                      Years married: 19
                      Children born: 5
                      Children living: 4
                      Actually the censuses for both 1901 and 1911 list only four children, not five, and none are mentioned (as far as I see) elsewhere.

                      But it is interesting that neither of the two girls have the name "Martha". Usually family names are somehow passed down. Fred's father's name, "Henry" (who died or left the family between 1871 and 1881 - most likely died) was honored with a grandson getting that name. The closest was Elizbeth's middle name being "Mary".

                      Possibly the fate of his mother was just too horrible for Fred to have to recall, so he decided not to push her ill-fated name on his daughters.

                      Jeff

                      By the way. The genealogical search showed Martha White married Harry Tabram. Where did the moniker, "Martha Turner" pop up from? An earlier marriage? Some relative?

                      Jeff
                      Last edited by Mayerling; 04-23-2016, 09:17 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by GUT View Post
                        Just thought it was funny.
                        It is!

                        Anyway, likely not new news but it answers the question of where at least one son ended up.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Mayerling View Post
                          Actually the censuses for both 1901 and 1911 list only four children, not five, and none are mentioned (as far as I see) elsewhere.

                          Jeff
                          The question on the 1911 census re "number of children" would have referred to those born over the person's life, prior to that time. Having listed five children, yet only four living, is not necessarily an error, as the fifth might have been born and died between census years, and so not appeared in them. Maybe the name Martha was given to a daughter who had died very young.

                          I think the question (which also appears on American national census records of a similar period) may have been meant to find out the infant mortality rate.
                          Today this information helps genealogists by prompting them to look for another birth certificate they might not otherwise have considered.
                          Pat D. https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...rt/reading.gif
                          ---------------
                          Von Konigswald: Jack the Ripper plays shuffleboard. -- Happy Birthday, Wanda June by Kurt Vonnegut, c.1970.
                          ---------------

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Hey, I know I disappeared forever, but am still alive in spite of the doctors prognosis. Whoever the Ripper was, if it was a single person, how does one explain away the blood spattered perpetrator hiding his condition whilst walking/journeying home. Does this not suggest strongly an accomplice/some form of transport?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              In 1896, Fred Tabram placed the following advert in Reynolds Newspaper:


                              TABRAM. - News wanted of Charles H. Tabram. Last heard of in London thirteen years ago. Any news will be thankfully received by his brother, Fred J. Tabram, care of the Editor.









                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
                                In 1896, Fred Tabram placed the following advert in Reynolds Newspaper:


                                TABRAM. - News wanted of Charles H. Tabram. Last heard of in London thirteen years ago. Any news will be thankfully received by his brother, Fred J. Tabram, care of the Editor.
                                Little did he know that he'd have been better off advertising in the Western Mail or the South Wales Echo.
                                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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