Mitre Square in all it gory glory.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Neil,

I have waited a few days for you to reply to a pertinent question re Kelly and the events during the evening before Kelly was murdered. Perhaps you missed it, but only wrote that it was "beautifully written"..here it is again..

If he (Wilkinson) cannot remember anybody going out between 12 and 2(as he said), and it was a very busy time (as he said), and that he had no means of remembering any person coming in(as he said).....

How can he be certain that Kelly didn't go out (as he said) and didnt come back in between 12 and 2?

The "recognising the regulars" statement by Wilkinson is countered by his statements above, no?

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello Neil,

I meant of course "Eddowes was murdered", not Kelly,apologies.

best wishes

Phil

[Monty]

Apologies Phil,

I did not realise you were waiting for an answer from me.

I find it odd that a lodging house keeper did not know if a space was being utilised or not. To let a 'bed' remain empty, even if paid for, was a cardinal sin...no matter for however long. Business is business.

I also feel Wilkinson had a selective memory.

Anyway, the scenario you suggest is obviously plausible. However if Lewande did see Eddowes and Jack, the interaction between the pair is not one of husband and wife in my opinion, especially if we believe Kelly and the story he states Eddowes told him of a proposed trip to Bermondsey.

Monty

[lynn cates]

trip

Hello Monty.

"if we believe Kelly and the story he states Eddowes told him of a proposed trip to Bermondsey."

You mean the one about scrounging from her daughter? Well, of course she had moved long before, as I recall.

John Kelly gave 2 different stories to account for his slow seeking out of Kate.

1. I thought she was in Bermondsey.

2. I thought she was in jail.

The first doesn't work because the daughter was not there, having moved long ago. But if the latter--well, how long does a D & D stay in jail?

Cheers.
LC

[Monty]

Lynn,

City polices policy for the release of drunk and disorderly people was when they were deemed sober enough to look after themselves. This was decided by the Desk Sergeant or the next highest rank available.

Mets policy was to keep them till morning, there lays the irony. If Eddowes was arrested by the Met, she'd have lived.

I suspect prositutes were aware of this and this is why Eddowes stuck to the Aldgate patch.

As for the Bermondsey story, it really questions how well Kelly knew Eddowes, if indeed his story is true.

Monty

[lynn cates]

Eddowes and Kelly

Hello Monty. Thanks for that.

"If Eddowes was arrested by the Met, she'd have lived."

Doubtless true, PROVIDED she decided to turn a trick at the last second and were a random victim of "Jack." But, from my point of view, Kate was targeted and would have been killed sooner or later.

You couched your reply in terms of John Kelly's veracity. You are a wise man.

Cheers.
LC

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

Phil does raise some interesting points. I hope they are addressed in the context of 1888 and not in 2010.

I was in Mitre Square last year at 4am in the morning, conducting field research with a gin soddened unfortunate. Well, OK, it was bourbon and it was another conference delegate, but one has to make compromises and sacrifices in the cause.

It was one f&#k of a creepy place, and yes, you could hear a pin drop.

But buildings have gone up and been torn down since 1888....anyone have a guess as to what the alterations might have done to the acoustics ?

[Raoul's Obsession]

Hello all,
Morris, sweeping the floor... didn't hear a thing, yet he normally heard the beat pc every 15 mins. If Jack the Ripper had rubber soles on his feet... Kate Eddowes certainly didn't. Those footsteps in the dead of night would echo..clearly. And when you watch two "lovers" walking to a destination..are they always silent? If either "Jack" or Kate said a word, laughed, giggled, scraped a foot on the stones as they walked.. it would have been heard...
So we are to presume that a sobering woman and her "catch" are silent as they walked are we? As far as echo is concerned, I'd love to see if on Jakes models the buildings would have created that echo then...I suspect it did.

Finally... the Square was pretty dark in 1888 we are told. Lamp at one end, lamp at another...
BUT...Morris said his door was ajar... and Morris certainly didn't work in the dark. So the light coming from the open doorway would shine out into the darkness... and "Jack" would very likely have seen it as he walked into the yard. Now if Jack saw it.. he KNEW that someone was likely awake and in there....

That tells me either Morris was lying and was asleep, or Morris was lying and awake, or Morris heard Jack the Ripper and ignored him and his "woman" walking in trying to find a lonely dark corner..

IF there was light coming from the ajar door of where Morris was working. it really is crucial...

Because it depends on whether the hinges on the door made the door swing out from the left of the doorway, or the right. Think about it... where would the light from Morris' doorway shine out upon? And did the door swing inwards, or outwards? If outwards... more direct light would shine into the square, if inwards, less.

Now... if the door had hinges on the left hand side as he (Morris) opened it from the inside... the light would travel more out into the square than if the hinges were on the right hand side... and if it was an outward swinging door...with hinges on the left (from the inside as you look at it)...masses of light would enter the square....
best wishes

Phil

I just thought I'd get back to the original question from this post and suggest an answer based on Morris's testimony from the Inquest as it seems noone else has answered it yet.

Watkins' testimony says that he ran over to the door of Kearley and Long {sic} where the door was ajar and pushed it open (inexact - written from my memory). Crucially he said 'pushed' it open implying that it opened inwards (though not 100% definate).

If we then take Morris' testimony, he says...

"The Coroner: What happened about a quarter to two in the morning? - Constable Watkins, who was on the Mitre-square beat, knocked at my door, which was slightly ajar at the time. I was then sweeping the steps down towards the door. The door was pushed when I was about two yards off. I turned round and opened the door wide. The constable said, "For God's sake, mate, come to my assistance." I said, "Stop till I get my lamp. What is the matter?" "Oh, dear," he exclaimed, "here is another woman cut to pieces." I asked where, and he replied, "In the corner." I went into the corner of the square and turned my light on the body. I agree with the previous witnesses as to the position of the body. I ran up Mitre-street into Aldgate, blowing my whistle all the while. "

Okay, so that again suggests his door opens inwards because if he was on the inside and the door opened towards him he would call it 'pushed'. Furthermore, he says he turned round and opened it wide: something that he would only do if indeed it opened inwards.

But then here's the interesting point that seems to have been lost:

"By Mr. Crawford: Before being called I had no occasion to go into the square. I did not go there between one and two o'clock; of that I am certain. There was nothing unusual in my door being open and my being at work at so late an hour. I had not seen Watkins before during the night. I do not think my door had been ajar more than two or three minutes when he knocked. "

this whole discussion of light being present seems a non-issue - his door wasn't ajar while the murder was taking place and no light was coming out into the square from that factory. This does raise some other questions though. Firstly - the door was closed and he was sweeping the stairs thus he himself was making noise. This could be one reason why he heard nothing. Another possibility however concerns when he opened the door ajar and why. Did he think he heard something? was the ripper still in the square at the time and upon seeing this fled?

just some things to ponder.

[Fisherman]

It would seem that there was a reoccurring thing, Raoul - Morris swept his way downstairs to the door, and when he got down, he opened it and had a rest. This is what he told the papers:

"Every night in the week, barring Saturday night, I stand at this door and smoke my pipe from one till two o'clock. It is a habit with me, and the police on the beat know it well, but on Saturday nights I have some work to do inside that interferes with it."

Of course, this was a Saturday night, and so Morris had things to do that prevented him from taking that hour of rest at the stated time. To me, it would seem that the extra work needed on Saturdays may have meant that he still took a breather - but not until he could spare the time. And that time seems to have dovetailed with the Ripperīs exploits in the square.

I think your suggestion that the opening of the magazine door scared Jack off is an eminent one. It would have created both light and a noise - and the impression that somebody was going to exit the door in seconds.Luckily for Jack, Morris opened the door before finishing off the sweeping of the last few stairs.

The general impression is that the Ripper fled by way of the passage leading to St Jamesīsquare, but if he really took of as the result of having been scared away by Morris opening the door, then maybe it would be more credible to suggest Mitre Street as the flight route - although we know that this street seemed to have been better guarded by the police. But it would seem odd if he took off in the direction of danger, instead of travelling away from it ...

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

exit

Hello Fish.

"But it would seem odd if he took off in the direction of danger, instead of traveling away from it[.]"

It would indeed. It would also be odd--as you point out--that he did not run smack into the police if he exited via Mitre st.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Exactly, Lynn! At least if he took a left turn, for it was from that direction that Watkins was approaching. But a few seconds can be an eternity in scenarios like this, letīs not forget that!

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

One thing i like about the suggestion is that I have often had a creepy feeling that our boy was very much aware of the police beats and timings. Itīs almost as if he worked to a timetable: "A cut there, and THERE, and then weīll extract this little bit AAAAAND move on to ... Whoops, timeīs up, Iīm outta here!" sort of.
But if he did take off because the door was opened - and given the VERY tight schedule, and taking in what he achieved in that short span of time, I think the suggestion is extremely reasonable - then it stands to reason that it was sheer luck that kept him out of the clutches of the police. And thatīs a reassuring thought, kind of. No criminal mastermind, thus - if we are on the button, that is.

The best,
Fisherman

[Monty]

The Police beats were reversed that very night.

If he was aware of Police beats, he musta done his calculations on the night in question.

Monty

[Fisherman]

Thatīs correct, Monty - and of course, even if he WAS aware of the beat timings, he could have scuttled away slightly prematurely due to Morris entering the scene.

The best,
Fisherman

[Monty]

Fish,

Wouldnt it be more logical if Eddowes was aware of the beat timing?

This may explain her loitering at the Duke Street end of Church Passage.

Monty