Bond, Hebbert and methodology

[MsWeatherwax]

Thank you for the confirmation Mrs Weatherwax. Your credentials certainly satisfy me you know what you are talking about but I'm not sure others will agree.

Well, 'tis only the internet. I'm only here for the exchange of ideas and opinions, I'm not going to get bent out of shape if someone doesn't think that I'm adequately qualified to comment.

[jerryd]

According to medical sources online, the ensiform cartilage is also known as the "Xiphoid Process". It is the sword shaped bone attached to the base of the sternum. Debs would be correct in saying it refers to the cut from the sternum to the pubes.

[Jon Guy]

According to medical sources online, the ensiform cartilage is also known as the "Xiphoid Process". It is the sword shaped bone attached to the base of the sternum. Debs would be correct in saying it refers to the cut from the sternum to the pubes.

Yes, Dr Brown also refers to it with reference to Kate Eddowes injuries:
Apologies if this has already been noted.

The front walls were laid open from the breast bones to the pubes. The cut commenced opposite the enciform cartilage. The incision went upwards, not penetrating the skin that was over the sternum. It then divided the enciform cartilage. The knife must have cut obliquely at the expense of that cartilage.

[MsWeatherwax]

According to medical sources online, the ensiform cartilage is also known as the "Xiphoid Process". It is the sword shaped bone attached to the base of the sternum. Debs would be correct in saying it refers to the cut from the sternum to the pubes.

Also known as the Xiphisternum. All completely the same thing, and nothing to do with the vagina unless the patient concerned has some really baffling anatomy.

[Trevor Marriott]

The flaps of skin are definitely mentioned in the book you linked to and the same source material has been used. The author also writes that Elizabeth's killer removed her foetus after death, so is interpreting the source material in the exact same way the rest of us seem to be, apart from you.

I wonder if you could ask Dr Biggs what an 'incision from ensiform cartiladge to pubes' describes? That is Hebbert's wording but the author in this book has described it as an incision into the vaginal cartilage. I am no anatomist but I am almost certain that an incision from 'ensiform cartilage to pubes' is describing a cut from the bottom of the sternum, down the abdomen and ending at the external pubic area. I am prepared to be proved wrong on that if you can clarify for certain what that phrase means.

As you requested !

Looking at images it would appear to be at the base of the sternum, so any incision that length may be consistent with perhaps post mortem procedure, or dare I say it some other back st procedure,

While it is in my mind, I also came across a medical account from for one of the doctors who examined one of the torsos, which one it was I cant recall, but he made comment that a saw may have been used to cut through the ribs. Now that is going to a lot of trouble from a killer simply wanting to dispose of a body is it not?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Also known as the Xiphisternum. All completely the same thing, and nothing to do with the vagina unless the patient concerned has some really baffling anatomy.

So that makes what the researcher says even more interesting does it not? It would seem that he has done a lot of research into these torsos. Certainly he doesn't say to much about colons and flaps of skin linking them all together.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Fisherman]

So that makes what the researcher says even more interesting does it not? It would seem that he has done a lot of research into these torsos. Certainly he doesn't say to much about colons and flaps of skin linking them all together.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Trevor, after having told me that I am no medical expert, only to then introduce vaginal cartilage into the discussion, I think that shutting up and blushing is the appropriate course for you to take.

No matter how much research Whittington-Egan has done on the torsos, he will have to lean extensively against Hebbert, without whom no thorough knowledge can be had about the matter.

Whether Whittington-Egan uses the flaps or colons to make the connection or not, I don´t know since I havent read the book. But I do know from what Debra quoted, that he thinks that it is extremely likely that the torso killer and the Ripper was the same man.

Maybe that is what comes from doing a lot of research into the torsos? Not that I am asking you, Trevor, not that I am asking you...

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor, after having told me that I am no medical expert, only to then introduce vaginal cartilage into the discussion, I think that shutting up and blushing is the appropriate course for you to take.

No matter how much research Whittington-Egan has done on the torsos, he will have to lean extensively against Hebbert, without whom no thorough knowledge can be had about the matter.

Whether Whittington-Egan uses the flaps or colons to make the connection or not, I don´t know since I havent read the book. But I do know from what Debra quoted, that he thinks that it is extremely likely that the torso killer and the Ripper was the same man.

Maybe that is what comes from doing a lot of research into the torsos? Not that I am asking you, Trevor, not that I am asking you...

Its there to be introduced, the researcher is a well respected author and ripperologist. The article was not referred to for his opinion on whether or not they were the all murdered by one killer. It was to introduce what might be new medical evidence. Which may also to go in part to show that your theory about a serial killer is as about as much use as a parachute in a hurricane.

If he thinks one killer, I dont see him making a big issue of colons and flaps of skin to corroborate what he believes !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Debra A]

As you requested !

Looking at images it would appear to be at the base of the sternum, so any incision that length may be consistent with perhaps post mortem procedure, or dare I say it some other back st procedure,

While it is in my mind, I also came across a medical account from for one of the doctors who examined one of the torsos, which one it was I cant recall, but he made comment that a saw may have been used to cut through the ribs. Now that is going to a lot of trouble from a killer simply wanting to dispose of a body is it not?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Oh, so I'm not such a dim wit after all then when it comes to anatomy!

Are those answers from Dr Biggs? If so, would u be able to ask if he would elaborate on what sort of procedure would require an incision from ribs to pubes that would necessitate it being done by a 'back street' operator?

Why would anyone do a post mortem and then dismember a body and dump it in the Regent's Canal and Thames?

[MsWeatherwax]

So that makes what the researcher says even more interesting does it not? It would seem that he has done a lot of research into these torsos. Certainly he doesn't say to much about colons and flaps of skin linking them all together.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Well no, not really. If he's interpreted a cut from sternum to pubes as a cut into the vaginal 'cartilage' I'd say he could probably have used a medical researcher because he is absolutely, completely wrong.

I'm sorry, I don't like to criticise people who have made the effort to actually try and put all of this into enough order to write a book (I wouldn't know where to start, nor do I pretend to). However, that statement is fundamentally incorrect.

[Debra A]

Its there to be introduced, the researcher is a well respected author and ripperologist. The article was not referred to for his opinion on whether or not they were the all murdered by one killer. It was to introduce what might be new medical evidence. Which may also to go in part to show that your theory about a serial killer is as about as much use as a parachute in a hurricane.

If he thinks one killer, I dont see him making a big issue of colons and flaps of skin to corroborate what he believes !

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

But that particular researcher, however well respected. seems to have made a little bit of a mistake in interpreting the medical evidence, Trevor. He is also using Hebbert's lectures as everyone keeps saying. What is the new medical evidence?

[Joshua Rogan]

He also seems to imply that the Whitehall Torso once had three arms...

[Trevor Marriott]

Oh, so I'm not such a dim wit after all then when it comes to anatomy!

Are those answers from Dr Biggs? If so, would u be able to ask if he would elaborate on what sort of procedure would require an incision from ribs to pubes that would necessitate it being done by a 'back street' operator?

Why would anyone do a post mortem and then dismember a body and dump it in the Regent's Canal and Thames?

Debra
You are not listening again, its all about plausible explanations not definite explanations. These type of incisions look specific not ramdom mutilations of the abdomen as we have seen with the WM.

Why would a killer open up a body in that way? and then float all the main body parts down the river. why not simply cut the body up into 6 pieces easy to dispose of that way.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

But that particular researcher, however well respected. seems to have made a little bit of a mistake in interpreting the medical evidence, Trevor. He is also using Hebbert's lectures as everyone keeps saying. What is the new medical evidence?

The suggestion that the vagina cartilage wall was cut. Are you not paying attention ?

How do you know what he is using, a ridiculous statement to make

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[MsWeatherwax]

Why would a killer open up a body in that way? and then float all the main body parts down the river. why not simply cut the body up into 6 pieces easy to dispose of that way.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Perhaps he was an ex-medical student who was thrown out of the Royal College of Surgeons due to his terrible temper and ever more noticeable drink problem. Driven mad by shame, he decides to continue his studies on the unfortunates he meets in his slide into poverty and debauchery in the East End. No, I don't actually think that's what happened...but technically, it is plausible.

I'm sorry if I sound sarcastic Trevor - it's just that you're trying to apply rational thinking to something that may not have an ounce of rationality involved (quite the opposite). It's like asking 'Why did Jeffrey Dahmer kill lots of young men, then dismember their corpses, keep some in his fridge and make an altar out of the skulls of some others?'. There is no answer for that. I doubt he knew himself, and I doubt the person involved in these killings did either.