Casebook Forums

Casebook Forums (https://forum.casebook.org/index.php)
-   Scene of the Crimes (https://forum.casebook.org/forumdisplay.php?f=124)
-   -   Pc Long and the piece of rag. (https://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=9862)

spyglass 09-12-2016 03:19 PM

Pc Long and the piece of rag.
 
Hi,
I'm assuming that when PC Long found the cloth in Goulston Street, he wasn't aware of the murder at Mitre Sq at that point.
I'm curious on why a piece of rag laying quite away in the door way would raise any suspicion about anything.
I doubt that any blood or red colour would stand out by a gas lamp in a dark corner, certainly from a slight distance.
I'm guessing back then, bits of old cloth, rubbish were strewn about every where and so wouldn't be given a second thought.
I'm also assuming the only reason a policeman would shine a lamp in such a place would be looking for vagrants or similar .

Regards.

Joshua Rogan 09-12-2016 03:32 PM

I believe PC Long said at inquest that he was aware of the Mitre Square murder, and had heard rumours of the other.

spyglass 09-12-2016 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan (Post 392445)
I believe PC Long said at inquest that he was aware of the Mitre Square murder, and had heard rumours of the other.

After checking, I realised I got my timing wrong when he found the cloth.
Still I wonder if a bit of rag would stand out.
If by then he was on the look out, I would have thought he would be more alert for suspicious looking individuals.

YomRippur 09-12-2016 04:26 PM

PC Long found the apron at 2:55am, and insisted he didn't see it the last time he was there, at 2:20am. We can surmise that the killer could have left the apron just after 2:20am at the earliest. That would mean the killer, after having left Mitre Square at about 1:45am or so, went away somewhere for about 35 minutes or so before arriving at Goulston Street. We can also surmise that he was probably in hiding somewhere during those 35 minutes because he probably thought he couldn't afford to be stopped by the police. Perhaps something he had would incriminate him, such as a bloody apron, of course. And perhaps being the loner that he likely was, he wouldn't be able to account for his whereabouts that night.

Harry D 09-13-2016 06:59 AM

I believe he saw the apron and paid it no mind, or he just missed it.

YomRippur 09-13-2016 07:50 AM

My belief is that something left at the entrance to a building would be quite conspicuous. If the object was inside the building, it would also be unlikely that the wind had blown it there (was it windy at Goulston Street that night?), as opposed to something placed in the middle of a street. Therefore, if I had seen something like that at a building's entrance, I would have been inclined to think that someone had placed it there.

---


Even if PC Long had missed it at 2:20am, it would still have been possible for the killer to put it there because the killer left Mitre Square around 1:45am.

My belief is that the killer probably put it there shortly before or after 2:20am, about 35 min after he left Mitre Square. That would fit his other activities that night too: he killed Stride at around 1 am, then appeared with Eddowes near Mitre Square at around 1:35am, again a 35-minute break.

Abby Normal 09-13-2016 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YomRippur (Post 392449)
PC Long found the apron at 2:55am, and insisted he didn't see it the last time he was there, at 2:20am. We can surmise that the killer could have left the apron just after 2:20am at the earliest. That would mean the killer, after having left Mitre Square at about 1:45am or so, went away somewhere for about 35 minutes or so before arriving at Goulston Street. We can also surmise that he was probably in hiding somewhere during those 35 minutes because he probably thought he couldn't afford to be stopped by the police. Perhaps something he had would incriminate him, such as a bloody apron, of course. And perhaps being the loner that he likely was, he wouldn't be able to account for his whereabouts that night.

Hi Yom
I tend to think that the ripper was pissed off after having been disturbed and seen by a lot of jews that night and went home to drop off his trophies and knife, get cleaned up a bit and grab a piece of chalk before heading back out to blame the jews and spread a little obsfucation.
it also explains the gap.

spyglass 09-13-2016 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YomRippur (Post 392449)
PC Long found the apron at 2:55am, and insisted he didn't see it the last time he was there, at 2:20am. We can surmise that the killer could have left the apron just after 2:20am at the earliest. That would mean the killer, after having left Mitre Square at about 1:45am or so, went away somewhere for about 35 minutes or so before arriving at Goulston Street. We can also surmise that he was probably in hiding somewhere during those 35 minutes because he probably thought he couldn't afford to be stopped by the police. Perhaps something he had would incriminate him, such as a bloody apron, of course. And perhaps being the loner that he likely was, he wouldn't be able to account for his whereabouts that night.

Hi,
Hanging around somewhere for 35 minutes is a long time to hang about straight after a murder, especially if he always intended to head back through Goulston Street, which using a short cut is about six minutes away.
Surely he would be putting himself more at risk of being stopped by hanging around close by.
which of course suggests he may have gone the slightly longer route ( about 12 mins ) through Aldgate , but by doing that he would be walking back in the direction towards where Stride was murdered which I assume would be swarming with police.

Regards

jerryd 09-13-2016 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spyglass (Post 392491)
Hi,
Hanging around somewhere for 35 minutes is a long time to hang about straight after a murder, especially if he always intended to head back through Goulston Street, which using a short cut is about six minutes away.
Surely he would be putting himself more at risk of being stopped by hanging around close by.
which of course suggests he may have gone the slightly longer route ( about 12 mins ) through Aldgate , but by doing that he would be walking back in the direction towards where Stride was murdered which I assume would be swarming with police.

Regards

Abby,

I've posted this before but to me, this makes the most sense, and a solid reason for the difference in the two killings that night. Two murderers working in collusion.

Philadelphia Times, December 3, 1888

TWO MURDERERS. The city detectives then early in the first week of October came to a definite conclusion, namely, that the two women met their death at the hands of different men. It was but taking a single step further to conclude that these two men were acting in collusion. The long interval that had elapsed between this and the previous butchery, the fact that the women belonged to the same class and the coincidence that the killing was done within the same thirty-five minutes all pointed to the same conclusion - that the murders had been deliberately planned, probably to be consummated at the same moment, for if even a couple of hours had elapsed between the two crimes the neighborhood would on the discovery of the first, have become so "hot" that the perpetrator of the second outrage would have found the matter of his escape rendered doubly difficult.
The two brainy men who thus theorized, although they firmly believed they had at last opened the case, were still at a loss in what direction to look for the authors of the fearful crimes. With the utmost patience they sought out the degraded companions of the dead women, and bit by bit they learned all that probably ever will be known of their habits, tastes and mode of life.

spyglass 09-13-2016 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerryd (Post 392492)
Abby,

I've posted this before but to me, this makes the most sense, and a solid reason for the difference in the two killings that night. Two murderers working in collusion.

Philadelphia Times, December 3, 1888

TWO MURDERERS. The city detectives then early in the first week of October came to a definite conclusion, namely, that the two women met their death at the hands of different men. It was but taking a single step further to conclude that these two men were acting in collusion. The long interval that had elapsed between this and the previous butchery, the fact that the women belonged to the same class and the coincidence that the killing was done within the same thirty-five minutes all pointed to the same conclusion - that the murders had been deliberately planned, probably to be consummated at the same moment, for if even a couple of hours had elapsed between the two crimes the neighborhood would on the discovery of the first, have become so "hot" that the perpetrator of the second outrage would have found the matter of his escape rendered doubly difficult.
The two brainy men who thus theorized, although they firmly believed they had at last opened the case, were still at a loss in what direction to look for the authors of the fearful crimes. With the utmost patience they sought out the degraded companions of the dead women, and bit by bit they learned all that probably ever will be known of their habits, tastes and mode of life.

Certainly a different take on it.


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:27 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.