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-   -   the victims werent prostitutes (https://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=10960)

magoo 09-16-2018 10:24 PM

the victims werent prostitutes
 
according to a new book https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/new...ectid=12126380

Varqm 09-17-2018 01:48 AM

Mary Ann Nichols

Emily Holland,:
"About half-past two on Friday morning witness saw deceased walking down Osborne-street, Whitechapel-road,""She informed witness that
where she had been living they would not allow her to return because she could not pay for her room. Witness persuaded her to go home. She refused, adding that she had earned her lodging money three times that day. She then went along theWhitechapel-road".

What was Nichols going to do to earn doss money? Nichols ended with a man/killer.

Annie Chapman

John Evans "
"I last saw her there on Saturday morning, and she left at about a quarter to two o'clock. I was sent down in the kitchen to see her, and she said she had not sufficient money. When she went upstairs I followed her, and as she left the house, I watched her go through a court called Paternoster-street, into Brushfield-street, and then turn towards Spitalfields Church".

Long saw Chapman with a man and they ended in the backyard.

What was Eddowes doing in Mitre square with the "sailor man" early in the morning.
What was Kelly doing with Blotchy?

Silly.It's c;ear they were prostituting.part-time or not.There was nothing wrong being a prostitute,that's what was only available to get money
.Still with "dignity",at least they did not swindle anybody.

----

Herlock Sholmes 09-17-2018 02:09 AM

Another book shaping up to be a complete waste of ink:shakehead:

Michael W Richards 09-17-2018 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Varqm (Post 456712)
Mary Ann Nichols

Emily Holland,:
"About half-past two on Friday morning witness saw deceased walking down Osborne-street, Whitechapel-road,""She informed witness that
where she had been living they would not allow her to return because she could not pay for her room. Witness persuaded her to go home. She refused, adding that she had earned her lodging money three times that day. She then went along theWhitechapel-road".

What was Nichols going to do to earn doss money? Nichols ended with a man/killer.

Annie Chapman

John Evans "
"I last saw her there on Saturday morning, and she left at about a quarter to two o'clock. I was sent down in the kitchen to see her, and she said she had not sufficient money. When she went upstairs I followed her, and as she left the house, I watched her go through a court called Paternoster-street, into Brushfield-street, and then turn towards Spitalfields Church".

Long saw Chapman with a man and they ended in the backyard.

What was Eddowes doing in Mitre square with the "sailor man" early in the morning.
What was Kelly doing with Blotchy?

Silly.It's c;ear they were prostituting.part-time or not.There was nothing wrong being a prostitute,that's what was only available to get money
.Still with "dignity",at least they did not swindle anybody.

----

That last bit has to go down as being your personal opinion of the overall matter, but in fact there is evidence in ONLY 2 cases that victims were soliciting when they met their killer. No evidence Liz was, no evidence Kate was, nor is there any evidence Mary was. Polly admitted "earning and spending" that last night, and Annie told her friend that she needed to pull herself together so she could get doss money. In the case of Mary Kelly we know she hasn't been working the streets as much in the time leading up to the crime,..she has about 2 weeks arrears on her room.

This seems like some innocuous and just a matter of opinion, but to me its a critical point. If they were soliciting, then the idea they met a stranger posing as a client fits naturally. If not....what was Liz doing there and why was she groomed and dressed nicely, who was this sailor man that Kate met up with and what had she planned to do..other than heading in the direction of Kelly, that is. And if Marys killer was in her room with her permission when he struck, then the possible "stranger" element is eliminated.

The randomness of the first 2 attacks seems to suggest an opportunistic killer and someone who likely preferred to target middle aged women who had diminished capacity in one way or another. Polly it seems was drunk, and Annie was ill.

PaulB 09-17-2018 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael W Richards (Post 456715)
That last bit has to go down as being your personal opinion of the overall matter, but in fact there is evidence in ONLY 2 cases that victims were soliciting when they met their killer. No evidence Liz was, no evidence Kate was, nor is there any evidence Mary was. Polly admitted "earning and spending" that last night, and Annie told her friend that she needed to pull herself together so she could get doss money. In the case of Mary Kelly we know she hasn't been working the streets as much in the time leading up to the crime,..she has about 2 weeks arrears on her room.

This seems like some innocuous and just a matter of opinion, but to me its a critical point. If they were soliciting, then the idea they met a stranger posing as a client fits naturally. If not....what was Liz doing there and why was she groomed and dressed nicely, who was this sailor man that Kate met up with and what had she planned to do..other than heading in the direction of Kelly, that is. And if Marys killer was in her room with her permission when he struck, then the possible "stranger" element is eliminated.

The randomness of the first 2 attacks seems to suggest an opportunistic killer and someone who likely preferred to target middle aged women who had diminished capacity in one way or another. Polly it seems was drunk, and Annie was ill.

There are two questions, one is whether the victims had ever provided sex for money and, if so, that forever branded them as prostitutes, the other is whether they were soliciting when they were murdered. There are other technical questions such as whether the casual sale of sex, in which we are told many women engaged when it was necessary, would be considered prostitution by the victims or their associates, or by the police. The police in 1888 described them as such, so did the press, and we've all considered the question since then - we know Stride and Kelly were prostitutes and the locatios where Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes were found suggests that they had gone there for sex. Despite some reservations, especially about Eddowes, the conclusion is that all were prostitues. Hopefully, Rubenhold's book will provide convincing evidence to support her conclusions. Unfortunately it is six months away, which is a lot of time for what is currently an utterly unsupported claim to infect the same minds that currently think DNA on a shawl has identified Jack the Ripper or that a diary has shown him to be James Maybrick.

Sam Flynn 09-17-2018 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes (Post 456714)
Another book shaping up to be a complete waste of ink:shakehead:

I'm rather more optimistic. There are many books on the subject whose main arguments I've found contentious or unconvincing, but which otherwise contain information and insights I've not encountered before.

Herlock Sholmes 09-17-2018 04:06 AM

Just a suggestion but is it not possible for example that Liz Stride wasn’t soliciting on the night of her murder but was waiting for an ‘admirer.’ Someone saw her though and recognised her as a prostitute and tried to do business. An argument ensued....

It’s difficult to see how we can prove that a known prostitute was actually actively soliticiting at the time of her murder. Eddowes might not have been actively soliciting but her victim probably approached her assuming that she was. She would have been unlikely to pass up the opportunity of earning a few pence.

If the author of this new book is trying to say that these women weren’t prostitutes then I can see little value as we know that they were. If she is saying that they also tried to earn money by other means then I can also see little value as we know this too. Then when we hear, as we’ve heard before, talk about ‘sexists’ ignoring the victims or Ripperologist being irreversibly wedded to the ‘old ideas’ I do tend to yawn.

Elamarna 09-17-2018 06:19 AM

Maybe I am completely wrong here, but what does it matter if the "five" were or were not prostitutes?

They were women, who were out on the streets of Whitechapel, or in the case of Kelly just a woman who lived there.

They met the most horrendious amd brutal of deaths and it matters not one jott if there were or were not prostitutes does it!


If Dr Rubenhold has found new information on the ladies, thats fantastic and all power to her elbow, i missed the recent talk, having relovated to Glasgow, and two visits in 2 weeks was just not possible.
Lets wait and see what the book tells us before passing judgement,



Steve

Herlock Sholmes 09-17-2018 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Flynn (Post 456718)
I'm rather more optimistic. There are many books on the subject whose main arguments I've found contentious or unconvincing, but which otherwise contain information and insights I've not encountered before.

Fair comment Gareth:2thumbsup:

Herlock Sholmes 09-17-2018 06:47 AM

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/727132...hapel-murders/

If I’m wrong I’ll be the first to admit it. But this doesn’t bode well in my opinion.


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