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-   -   Why doubt a soldier murdered Tabram? (https://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=10556)

Batman 11-02-2017 01:51 AM

Why doubt a soldier murdered Tabram?
 
The early morning Tabram was murdered, a patrolling beat officer, PC Thomas Barrett, questioned a grenadier loitering nearby, who replied that he was waiting for a friend.

Killeen said that a wound on her sternum appeared to have been inflicted by a dagger or bayonet.

Pearly Poll said Tabram was drinking with two soldiers and herself.

It seems that’s three corroborating accounts of a military connect.

PC Barrett
Dr. Killeen
Pearly Poll

How can all three be coincidentally mistaken/lying at the same time?

Jon Guy 11-02-2017 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Batman (Post 434343)
The early morning Tabram was murdered, a patrolling beat officer, PC Thomas Barrett, questioned a grenadier loitering nearby, who replied that he was waiting for a friend.

Killeen said that a wound on her sternum appeared to have been inflicted by a dagger or bayonet.

Pearly Poll said Tabram was drinking with two soldiers and herself.

It seems thatís three corroborating accounts of a military connect.

PC Barrett
Dr. Killeen
Pearly Poll

How can all three be coincidentally mistaken/lying at the same time?

Hi Batman

The authorities did seem to take the soldier connection seriously as there were a few line up`s at the barracks and the chasing up of the whereabouts of soldiers who were absent at the time.

I don`t think the idea has ever been refuted.

GUT 11-02-2017 02:08 AM

I doubt it can be ruled out.

But then again even if we accept she had an engagement with a soldier, thereís nothing to show he WAS the one who killed her.

Michael W Richards 11-02-2017 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GUT (Post 434347)
I doubt it can be ruled out.

But then again even if we accept she had an engagement with a soldier, thereís nothing to show he WAS the one who killed her.

There is that single large wound description GUT, and the fact that soldiers were permitted to wear short swords and bayonets out on Bank Holidays. We also know soldiers were out in pairs, as this particular witness account corroborates.

I think the "passion" induced killings are quite different from some of the cold and calculating murders that followed, as was the poor "heat of the moment" decision.. as it appears, that was made in the case of Liz Stride.

Tabram was initially stabbed by someone ill equipped to inflict a mortal wound with a single stab, or for that matter, a few stabs. That indicates to me that the weapon he was using was the only one at his disposal. If he had a larger weapon and if he just wanted to kill her something more lethal would have been used. That bayonet type wound appears to have been a finale to this event, it was intended to stop the heart. Perhaps a mercy killing in the end.

Abby Normal 11-02-2017 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Batman (Post 434343)
The early morning Tabram was murdered, a patrolling beat officer, PC Thomas Barrett, questioned a grenadier loitering nearby, who replied that he was waiting for a friend.

Killeen said that a wound on her sternum appeared to have been inflicted by a dagger or bayonet.

Pearly Poll said Tabram was drinking with two soldiers and herself.

It seems thatís three corroborating accounts of a military connect.

PC Barrett
Dr. Killeen
Pearly Poll

How can all three be coincidentally mistaken/lying at the same time?

Hi Batman
Totally agree. And thereís no reason that soldier couldnít also have been the ripper.

Now that being said any doubt IMHO of it being the soldier of the witnesses is that tab ram was killed much later than the time she was with him. And I havenít discounted the possibility that after she was with him, he left her alive and well and she was sleeping in the stairwell when the ripper came upon her. After all other witnesses stated that the stairwell was used for sleeping.

Michael W Richards 11-02-2017 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abby Normal (Post 434355)
Hi Batman
Totally agree. And thereís no reason that soldier couldnít also have been the ripper.Now that being said any doubt IMHO of it being the soldier of the witnesses is that tab ram was killed much later than the time she was with him. And I havenít discounted the possibility that after she was with him, he left her alive and well and she was sleeping in the stairwell when the ripper came upon her. After all other witnesses stated that the stairwell was used for sleeping.

I assume you mean other than the fact that she wasn't ripped, she was killed with 2 weapons, her throat wasn't cut at all, and that there are no abdominal mutilations.

Sam Flynn 11-02-2017 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael W Richards (Post 434357)
I assume you mean other than the fact that she wasn't ripped, she was killed with 2 weapons, her throat wasn't cut at all, and that there are no abdominal mutilations.

And, if her killer was simultaneously the Ripper and one of the soldiers who'd been in the company of his soldier buddy and Pearly Poll, then this distinctly open courtship of a victim was very much at odds with his later MO. (By "later", of course, I mean a matter of four weeks.)

Fisherman 11-02-2017 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Batman (Post 434343)
The early morning Tabram was murdered, a patrolling beat officer, PC Thomas Barrett, questioned a grenadier loitering nearby, who replied that he was waiting for a friend.

Killeen said that a wound on her sternum appeared to have been inflicted by a dagger or bayonet.

Pearly Poll said Tabram was drinking with two soldiers and herself.

It seems thatís three corroborating accounts of a military connect.

PC Barrett
Dr. Killeen
Pearly Poll

How can all three be coincidentally mistaken/lying at the same time?

I donīt want to be a partycrasher, Batman, but you may need to let go of one of the three people you listed. I donīt think Dr Killeen ever said anything about a bayonet. He spoke of a "long, strong instrument" such as a dagger.

I may be misremembering, of course, but Iīm happy to stand corrected in that case.

Abby Normal 11-02-2017 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael W Richards (Post 434357)
I assume you mean other than the fact that she wasn't ripped, she was killed with 2 weapons, her throat wasn't cut at all, and that there are no abdominal mutilations.

well, yes, then theres that. lol.

but as with most serial killers, theres escalation, and change in MO as they perfect their technique.

conversely theres many similarities that's tips it being the ripper for me:

same victomology
same time frame
same location
same time of day-night
knife used
no witness heard anything
no overt sign of struggle
knife wounds to privates
unsolved
found with skirt lifted (clincher for me)
some police included her in the series

Abby Normal 11-02-2017 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Flynn (Post 434358)
And, if her killer was simultaneously the Ripper and one of the soldiers who'd been in the company of his soldier buddy and Pearly Poll, then this distinctly open courtship of a victim was very much at odds with his later MO. (By "later", of course, I mean a matter of four weeks.)

yup. an obvious difference.

however, since its possibly the first kill (if it was the ripper) then the changes later could be perfecting his MO. also theirs the possibility it could have been a trigger kill-as in he really hadn't set out to kill that night.


we also need to keep in mind that he may have spent considerable time with Stride ala peaked cap man. and that he and Kelly might have known each other and or if the ripper was blotchy they obviously hung out for a while in public before the kill.


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