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-   -   Discourse about left-right-handedness (https://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=10031)

Pierre 12-16-2016 01:45 PM

Discourse about left-right-handedness
 
This is not a thread where I am asking if Jack the Ripper was left handed or right handed.

It is a thread where I am asking why the doctors thought he was left handed or right handed.

Why did they interpret the wounds and marks on the victims as having been done by a left hand, by a left handed killer, by a right hand or by a right handed killer?

What can explain the variations in the discourse?

In what instances is a left handed / right handed cut /killer described?

Are the descriptions of the two types conflicting or not?

There is evidence that Jack the Ripper was left handed. There is evidence that Jack the Ripper was right handed. Why?

Pierre

jerryd 12-16-2016 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 403425)
There is evidence that Jack the Ripper was left handed. There is evidence that Jack the Ripper was right handed. Why?


1)They were killed by different people.
2)The killer was ambidextrous.
3)Position of victim/killer when slashed. Standing/on ground.

Pierre 12-16-2016 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerryd (Post 403428)
1)They were killed by different people.
2)The killer was ambidextrous.
3)Position of victim/killer when slashed. Standing/on ground.

Well, could you think of some more reasons?

kjab3112 12-16-2016 03:24 PM

Pierre, the idea of which hand is based on natural drift of a straight line and better position to perform the manipulations. The evidence though was pure opinion of the doctors performing the autopsy examination. If the victim was on the floor at the time the throat was cut (as the inquests seem to suggest) and the throat cut started on the victim's left (as again) then a right handed knifeman would be more likely

Best wishes

Paul

kjab3112 12-16-2016 04:07 PM

Pierre,

Further to your ambidextrous question, the stand out is MJK. The first four canonical had a suggested throat cut from the left (Annie and Polly two left sided cuts, Liz and Catherine a lift off from left to right). MJK though was cut from the right. If there was only one knifeman in 1888 slashing throats, then there would be a high likelihood of some left handedness.

Best wishes

Paul

DJA 12-16-2016 07:07 PM

How does a pathologist with an interest in gut flora who lectured with his left hand secured in his clothing sound?
The is no MJK.
Her name was Mary Ann Kelly and a member of Jack's church as a youngster.

Joshua Rogan 12-17-2016 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kjab3112 (Post 403440)
Further to your ambidextrous question, the stand out is MJK. The first four canonical had a suggested throat cut from the left (Annie and Polly two left sided cuts, Liz and Catherine a lift off from left to right). MJK though was cut from the right. If there was only one knifeman in 1888 slashing throats, then there would be a high likelihood of some left handedness.

I don't think MJK is a stand out, really, more of a stand the other side.
For the first four canonicals the killer was thought to have stood (or crouched/knelt) on the victims' right when cutting the throat (for two that was probably the only place). In Kelly's case, the killer had to stand on her left side, hence the cut apparently going the other way.

Pierre 12-17-2016 12:25 PM

[quote=kjab3112;403434]

Quote:

Pierre, the idea of which hand is based on natural drift of a straight line
Hi,

I am very interested in what you are writing here and will comment on it in all itīs parts. "Natural drift of a straight line" - I have never heard of the concept. Is there any research for it?

Quote:

and better position to perform the manipulations.
And "better" is an ordinal variable so there is a possibility of different values. Therefore, how can we say that this variable is important in the case of handedness and in what way?

Also, if you convert the variable you get the variable worse. In what ways would such a variable change the idea of the killer trying to obtain a "better" position?

Quote:

The evidence though was pure opinion of the doctors performing the autopsy examination.
And when you say "pure" opinions, what is that "purity"?

And the opinions, why do they differ?

Quote:

If the victim was on the floor at the time the throat was cut (as the inquests seem to suggest) and the throat cut started on the victim's left (as again) then a right handed knifeman would be more likely
The "if" is a problem and the "a right handed...would be more likely" is a problem already, which started a long time ago, and I would like to avoid that problem here right now. So not trying to determine the handedness - but trying to determine why the discourse is as it is.

So, what do you think about all this?

Regards, Pierre

Pierre 12-17-2016 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kjab3112 (Post 403440)
Pierre,

Further to your ambidextrous question, the stand out is MJK. The first four canonical had a suggested throat cut from the left (Annie and Polly two left sided cuts, Liz and Catherine a lift off from left to right). MJK though was cut from the right. If there was only one knifeman in 1888 slashing throats, then there would be a high likelihood of some left handedness.

Best wishes

Paul

Hi again,

and that is the same questions: was the killer left/right-handed or "ambidextrous", and then the "likelihood of some left handedness".

So how could we analyze the discourse instead? We can try these questions:

Why did they interpret the wounds and marks on the victims as having been done by a left hand, by a left handed killer, by a right hand or by a right handed killer?

What can explain the variations in the discourse?

In what instances is a left handed / right handed cut /killer described?

Are the descriptions of the two types conflicting or not?

There is evidence that Jack the Ripper was left handed. There is evidence that Jack the Ripper was right handed. Why?

So what could be our suggested answer(s)?

Regards, Pierre

Pierre 12-17-2016 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan (Post 403479)
I don't think MJK is a stand out, really, more of a stand the other side.
For the first four canonicals the killer was thought to have stood (or crouched/knelt) on the victims' right when cutting the throat (for two that was probably the only place). In Kelly's case, the killer had to stand on her left side, hence the cut apparently going the other way.

Why would the killer have had to stand on her left side? Was there a law for it?

And was he actually thought to have stood on the right side, are there sources for this?

Regards, Pierre


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