Was Evans innocent?

[Sherlock]

Hi Limehouse


The case of Christie and Evans is indeed a complex one, and I still haven't come to any definite conclusion as to which of the two men comitted either or both of the murders of Beryl and Geraldine.

I suspect that Evans' claim that Christie offered to perform an abortion on Beryl is probably true; I believe that it was rumoured in the neighbourhood that he was an abortionist, and I think I read in one book that official documents which have fairly recently come to light revealed that the police themselves actually suspected that abortions took place at 10 Rillington Place. However, as far as I am aware there is no evidence that Christie actually performed any abortions, or that he had the knowledge to do so. It is therefore more likely that he merely claimed to be able to do so in order to murder or sexually assault women.

It is my understanding that the body of Beryl Evans was exhumed in 1953 for further examination after Christie had confessed to her murder, but that no evidence of carbon monoxide poisoning was found, despite Christie's claim that he had administered gas prior to killing her. Moreover, the bruising on her face which had been noted at the original post mortem in 1949 would appear to be alien to Christie's method of killing, and therefore might suggest Evans as her killer. However, it is perhaps worth remembering that Christie did have a previous conviction for violent assault in 1929, when he hit the woman with whom he was living at the time over the head with a cricket bat.

As far as is known, there is nothing in Christie's history prior to 1949 which might suggest that he had the motivation to attack a child. In fact, he claimed to be very fond of children, and I think it has been said that he was sometimes very kind to them. At the same time, he also claimed to love his wife, but this did not prevent him from murdering her.

Interestingly, Professor Keith Simpson recorded in Forty Years of Murder
that Christie was asked after his arrest whether he might have been responsible for the murder of a little girl in Windsor which had occurred some time previously. He apparently told the police that he thought that he was not responsible as he had never been to Windsor.

Here is a possible scenario for what really happened; I do not know if it is a realistic one or not, it is merely a suggestion:-

Christie offered to perform an abortion on Beryl in order to murder or sexually assault her, but to his frustration this was turned down by Evans. Some days later, Evans had a violent row with Beryl over their mounting debts and hit her on the face, knocking her out. He then panicked and fetched Christie, fearing that he had killed her and knowing that Christie claimed to have medical knowledge. Christie came upstairs and found himself confronted with an unconscious female, whom he had in fact hoped to murder himself. He then persuaded Evans to leave the room on some pretext while he attended to Beryl's injuries and then proceded to strangle and possibly sexually assault her. When Evans returned Christie informed him that although he had tried to save her, Beryl had died of her injuries and that Evans would possibly hang for it, as he could not prove that he had not intended to kill her. He then persuaded Evans to leave London, telling him that he would arrange for Geraldine to be looked after by a couple in East Acton - interestingly, Christie had worked at the Ultra Radio works in Acton after leaving the War Reserve Police, and it was here that he had met is second known victim, Muriel Eady. When Evans had departed for Wales, Christie strangled Geraldine and hid both bodies in the wash-house.

As I said, I do not know if this scenario is at all probable, and no doubt it would not answer all the questions arising from the case, but it would be interesting to hear other people's views on it.

Rupert Furneaux states in The Two Stranglers of Rillington Place that Ethel Christie informed another tenant in 1951 that she felt that her husband had been involved with the Evans murders, as his manner had been strange ever since then. Christie himself then entered the room and became very angry, saying that he did not to want hear the matter discussed again. Unfortunately, Furneaux does not say from whom he obtained this and a good deal of other interesting information which he records in his book, so it may well be apocryphal.

regards
SHERLOCK

[Limehouse]

Hi Sherlock,

Both of these scenarios seem plausible except that the timescale of events at 10 Rillington Place, borne out by builder's timesheets and the movement of materials to and from the outhouse where the bodies were found, seems to suggest that Christie placed the bodies there. He also had previous and subsequent form as a strangler.

However, your contribution is interesting, as it presents two different scenarios against Christie being the killer of both Gerladine and Beryl.

I still remain convinced that Christie killed both of them, partly because i do not believe Evans would have strangled his wife with a ligature, but is more likely to have beaten her and I also believe he could not have hurt his child, whom he adored.

Youre respectfully

Limehouse

[Sherlock]

Was Evans innocent?

There are two books concerning the murders at 10 Rillington Case with similar titles:-

The Two Stranglers of Rillington Place by Rupert Furneaux was published as a paperback in 1961 by Panther Books. Furneaux argues that while Evans strangled his wife Beryl in the course of a row over their debts, Christie strangled Evans' daughter Geraldene. Furneaux also suggests that the two men worked in collusion, and that Christie was aware that Evans had strangled Beryl, and encouraged him to leave London, telling him that he would arrange for Geraldene to be looked after by a non-existant couple in East Acton. Christie then strangled Geraldene to get her out of the way, while Evans genuinely believed that she was still alive. Furneaux also believes that Christie placed both bodies in the wash-house, and hints that being in possession of Beryl's body for a short while gave Christie further opportunities to indulge his necrophiliac perversions.

Interestingly, the Brabin inquiry of 1966 also concluded that whilst Evans killed his wife, he did not kill his daughter. As he had been tried and executed for the murder of his daughter and not his wife, he was granted a free pardon.

The Two Killers of Rillington Place by John Eddowes was published in 1994 by Little, Brown and Company. Eddowes argues that Evans killed both Beryl and Geraldene, and that Christie was probably aware of the murders but kept silence so that his own crimes would not be discovered. Eddowes writes very scathingly about Ludovic Kennedy's "standard version" of the case, and I believe that Kennedy actually took legal action against Eddowes for this, which was settled out of court, and which also led to the first hardback edition of Eddowes' book being withdrawn from sale.

I also believe that John Eddowes was the son of Michael Eddowes, who wrote "The Man on your Conscience", published in 1955 by Cassell and Company, which was the first full-length book to argue the case for Evans' innocence.

Another work about the case which does not seem to be particularly well-known is "The Crimes at Rillington Place" by John Newton Chance, which was published in 1961 by Hodder and Stoughton. Chance describes the murders of Beryl and Geraldene in the form of a short novel, and also argues that Evans was responsible for both of them.

regards
SHERLOCK

[Limehouse]

The following website argues a good case against Evans being guilty of either murder. It has an excellent explanation of the wash house scenario and explains why Christie is much more likely to have killed both Beryl and Geraldine.

http://www.parmaq.com/truecrime/Rillington.htm

[dougie]

Geraldine was a baby - of course Christie couold have carted her downstairs. In any case, we do not know where Geraldine died. She could have died in Christie's flat.(unquote)

substitute beryl for geraldine...a mistake

(quote)
You suggest that Evans made the decision 'I know Geraldine just died but I promised my relatives I'd visdit them'... This is clearly nonsense. Evan's knew Beryl had died but he thought Geraldine was in the care of a loving couple. Evan's state's that after Beryl's death, Christie arranged the care of Geraldine and advised him to sell his posssessions and leave town. This is what he apparently did.(unquote)

Its not nonsense..its what happened .... and they werent the actions of an innocent man in my opinion (or the QCS) and a host of others at the time

(quote)

Your point about Christie's sciatica is also interesting, given that a day after he is thought to have moved Beryl Evans from the empty flat downstairs to the wash house, he visited his doctor complaining of chroinic back pain. However, his condition did not prevent him from killing and burying or concealing, four more women in the house.(unquote)

Christie had a history of back trouble.theres a difference between the distances (and the obstacles)between the place of death(s) and places of concealment.

I fully believe the state hung an innocent man when they hung Evans.

from such stuff,legends are born

[Limehouse]

Geraldine was a baby - of course Christie couold have carted her downstairs. In any case, we do not know where Geraldine died. She could have died in Christie's flat.

You suggest that Evans made the decision 'I know Geraldine just died but I promised my relatives I'd visdit them'... This is clearly nonsense. Evan's knew Beryl had died but he thought Geraldine was in the care of a loving couple. Evan's state's that after Beryl's death, Christie arranged the care of Geraldine and advised him to sell his posssessions and leave town. This is what he apparently did.

Your point about Christie's sciatica is also interesting, given that a day after he is thought to have moved Beryl Evans from the empty flat downstairs to the wash house, he visited his doctor complaining of chroinic back pain. However, his condition did not prevent him from killing and burying or concealing, four more women in the house.

I fully believe the state hung an innocent man when they hung Evans.

[dougie]

Christie had already killed two women by strangulation. He put a ligature round their necks and killed them. Beryl died in the same way - from a ligature round her neck - not bare hands. That suggests some degree of premeditation - not something done in the heat of the moment. (unQUOTE)

nOT neccessarilly.....

(quote)
Evans went to stay with relatives in Wales. That is not exactly running away as he could easily be found. He eventually admitted Beryl was dead because his family were continuously enquiring after Beryl and the baby. Evans was obviously distressed. He thought Christie had put Beryl down the drain as he said he would. That is where he expected Beryl to be found.

(UNQUOTE)

Wouldnt you say that Evans visit to his relatives in Wales was, shall we say made at a rather convenient time?Or was it pre-planned?and he thought "well I know geraldine has just died,but I did promise my relatives Id visit them today"......To suggest one event wasnt connected to the other seems odd.Of course its plain that the "visit" was connected to the events.His actions werent those of an innocent man in my opinion.


QUOTE)


I do not believe Evans killed his daughter. He was devoted to her and believed Christie when he said she was being looked after. Evans had no previous convictions for violence - Christie did. Christie went on to murder several more women by strangulation. Christie is proven to have had the inclination to murder by strangulation. (UNQUOTE)

We are told Evans was devoted to his daughter,we dont know that....and even if he was,one would assume that he was ,or had been devoted to his wife also at some time.....and look what happened to her...Christie gassed and strangled his victims to have sex with them when they were dead,he was a necrophiliac...as far as i recall ,i might be wrong,but there was no sign of sexual interference with geraldine .Because Christie strangled women doesnt mean that Evans couldnt have done just that to his wife.


(QUOTE)

I will not sway from my belief that Christie was guilty of Beryl and Geraldine's murder.

(UNQUOTE)
iTS Not a question of swaying or otherwise,Im not suggesting I know the truth....either Christie or Evans might have done the deed,there is still doubt....and at best Evans in my mind would have been an accomplice anyway to a greater or lesser degree.....i.e can we believe a man (Christie) suffering with chronic sciatica would be capable of carting geraldine down stairs and into the outbuilding alone?

[Limehouse]

Christie had already killed two women by strangulation. He put a ligature round their necks and killed them. Beryl died in the same way - from a ligature round her neck - not bare hands. That suggests some degree of premeditation - not something done in the heat of the moment.

Evans went to stay with relatives in Wales. That is not exactly running away as he could easily be found. He eventually admitted Beryl was dead because his family were continuously enquiring after Beryl and the baby. Evans was obviously distressed. He thought Christie had put Beryl down the drain as he said he would. That is where he expected Beryl to be found.

I do not believe Evans killed his daughter. He was devoted to her and believed Christie when he said she was being looked after. Evans had no previous convictions for violence - Christie did. Christie went on to murder several more women by strangulation. Christie is proven to have had the inclination to murder by strangulation.

I will not sway from my belief that Christie was guilty of Beryl and Geraldine's murder.

[dougie]

[QUOTE=Limehouse;16800]Beryl Evans was strangled. At the time of her death, Christie had already strangled and concealed several other women at the house in Rillington Place. This shows that Christie had the ability and inclination to strangle women.

Although Evans had a tendency towards violence, it was generally born out of frustration and immaturity. It is highly unlikely that he possessed the meaured control needed to strangle a woman. If he was to kill Beryl during a row, it is more liley that he would have beaten her with a weapon(UNQUOTE)

That is quite a big assumption.As for "measured control",what exactly is that?..To strangle a woman (and ive no first hand knowledge of this ) I suggest all that is needed is to put your hands round her throat and squeeze,no real expertise needed.

(QUOTE)
When Evans confessed that his WIFE was dead, he stated he had 'put her body down a drain'. It is suggested that this is what Christie had told Evans he would do with Beryl's body after her unexpected death. In my opinion, Evans believed Christie's story that Beryl had died during an abortion, and after a few days of thinking about the events, he wanted a decent burial for his wife. That is why he went to the police station to admit that she had died after taking something to produce an abortion. At this point I believe Evans had no idea his daughter was dead(UNQUOTE)

So it seems Evans was more interested in a decent burial,and less interested in the fact that she had been killed?



(QUOTE)
As Evan's state of mind and his ability to 'run anway when he was in trouble', I believe that he did not run away at all but left London simply because his wife had died in suspicious circumstances and he believed his daughter was safe and well living with another couple. He clearly lacked the ability to think things through fully, he was gullible and was able to be manipulated by Christie.
(9UNQUOTE)


He didnt run away?Well it bears all the hallmarks of "running away"..and if he didnt regard it as running away,why did he later "give himself up"?


(QUOTE)

Christie confessed to the murder of Beryl Evans but could not bring himself to admit or confess to having murdered a child. He had nothing to lose in admitting to the murder of another woman, but as a child murderer he would have been dispised far more and during his last few weeks before execution would have suffered at the hands of those charged with looking after him(UNQUOTE)


I doubt whether Christie would have suffered at the hands of his gaolers anyhow.......and just how much more can one be despised after reaching a certain level? Christie had allready reached that level with the murder of the women,killing a child wouldnt have raised the level any higher.

regards

[Christine]

Just based on what you can read about this online, it seems unlikely that Evans killed baby Geraldine.

He confessed to killing his wife accidentally in a botched abortion, but apparently thought the baby was alive until the police showed him her clothes. And in the police-elicited confession, he said he put both bodies in the wash house immediately after he killed them, which was impossible as the wash house was full of workmen at the time. Christie's confession has him correctly moving Beryl's body to the wash house at a later time. So who put the baby in the wash house?

And Christie made a big deal of "not remembering" what happened to the baby, not of remembering that she was last seem alive in her father's company.

Christie and Evans might have worked together, Christie motivated by necrophiliac sexual desires and Evans by a desire to get out of a bad marriage and family situation, but at the very least Christie must have been the prime motivator. We know he told Evans what to do; the real question is how much Evans understood what was going on.

[sdreid]

The Evans bodies were found together in an area where Christie had disposed of other victims and walled up in a fashion sometimes used by Reg. We'll likely never know for sure who killed them.

I'm not a hardcore death penally advocate but good riddance to Christie anyway. He'd turn 110 this year and many would want to let the poor old man out.

We'll probably still be listening to Manson's crap 35 years from now.

[Limehouse]

Beryl Evans was strangled. At the time of her death, Christie had already strangled and concealed several other women at the house in Rillington Place. This shows that Christie had the ability and inclination to strangle women.

Although Evans had a tendency towards violence, it was generally born out of frustration and immaturity. It is highly unlikely that he possessed the meaured control needed to strangle a woman. If he was to kill Beryl during a row, it is more liley that he would have beaten her with a weapon.

When Evans confessed that his WIFE was dead, he stated he had 'put her body down a drain'. It is suggested that this is what Christie had told Evans he would do with Beryl's body after her unexpected death. In my opinion, Evans believed Christie's story that Beryl had died during an abortion, and after a few days of thinking about the events, he wanted a decent burial for his wife. That is why he went to the police station to admit that she had died after taking something to produce an abortion. At this point I believe Evans had no idea his daughter was dead.

As Evan's state of mind and his ability to 'run anway when he was in trouble', I believe that he did not run away at all but left London simply because his wife had died in suspicious circumstances and he believed his daughter was safe and well living with another couple. He clearly lacked the ability to think things through fully, he was gullible and was able to be manipulated by Christie.

Christie confessed to the murder of Beryl Evans but could not bring himself to admit or confess to having murdered a child. He had nothing to lose in admitting to the murder of another woman, but as a child murderer he would have been dispised far more and during his last few weeks before execution would have suffered at the hands of those charged with looking after him.

I wonder whether Christie was responsible for other murders?

[dougie]

maybe

[Graham]

John Eddowes wrote "The Two Killers Of 10 Rillington Place" suggesting that Christie couldn't keep his hands off the ladies, and that Evans killed his own daughter, either deliberately or accidentally. Eddowes was probably close to the truth.

Graham

[dougie]

I think Evans was innocent of both crimes too. The forensic evidence on Beryl and the location of Geraldine's body appear to point to Christie being guilty of both murders.

Hi Limehouse,
What was the total sum of the FORENSIC evidence regarding Beryl?And why would Evans admit (albeit only briefly) to the murder of his daughter?.To protect Christie? I cant see that.As for his inability to grasp the consequences of his actions...then why did he run?...on Christ ies say so? Doesnt sound too convincing to me anyhow.That fact alone would suggest to me that while his I.Q was lower than average he did indeed know,and therefore was responsible for, the consequences of his actions......Two killers in one house,at the same time?while it must be said its perhaps unlikely,nonetheless for that Christie and Evans (if guilty) would have been two distinctly different kinds of killers.One killed for reasons of sexual satisfaction,and the other would have killed in a fit of temper,or possibly frustration. The fact that 10 rillington place housed one sexually twisted killer doesnt negate the possibility that another occupant of same dwelling might kill also.
REGARDS