Craig and Bentley

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Julie,

Yes - there was some debate over whether PC Miles was actually shot by Craig's gun or one of the other policemen on the roof

Sorry Julie, I guess I have missed something here .What were Craig and Bentley doing with a gun in the first place ? I mean people don"t normally go round carrying guns do they?

Norma

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Julie,



The rogue I referred to was former grammar-school, A-Levels and all that, and his dad was a police sergeant! He started off doing it for thrills, but then it became serious. When I knew him, he had never been caught. His motto might have been: Crime Pays - And You Don't Get Taxed On It!

Graham

Given the scandals of the past year or so re MP"s expenses,it appears many of our MP"s think so too-why they have even worked out how to present some of it as quasi legal and thereby avoid the clink!

[larue]

Wasn't there a lot of controversy concerning the calibre of the bullets found on the roof, and that of the bullet that killed Miles? I think it was suggested that Miles could have been killed by a bullet from an armed policeman.

hi Graham
i think this is so. was it not also the case that craig was using .455 and .45 in the same gun? or am i getting confused with another case? it's a fact though, that for whatever reason craig cut aboot an inch from the gun barrel, making an innacurate weapon even more so. i believe this also fuelled the controversy regarding the performance of craig's gun.

A stitich-up, in my opinion.

after reading MJ Trow, and learning aboot Claude Pain's account, and that of some of the unquestioned witnesses, i would suspect you could be right about that.

Odd how Bentley and Hanratty had similar backgrounds, upbringings, personalities and lifestyles.

Graham

i think you could add Timothy Evans to that list too!

[jason_c]

I have been fascinated with this case since I first saw David Yallop's 'To Encourage The Others' back in 1971. I've read many books on the case but Mei Trow's 'Let Him Have It' and Iris Bentley's 'Let Him Have Justice' have been the best. Some of the others don't bear mention, awful stuff.

Iris' is written, as you can imagine, very much from the Bentley side. In it she refers to a 'Thames Reports' programme, in which Chris Craig took a lie detector test. He claimed Derek Bentley never said 'Let Him Have it Chris' and the polygraph confirmed this. I remember the programme, very powerful.

Iris puts forward her case for a Police conspiracy, to remove from Derek any defence against 'Joint Enterprise'. She sites the evidence of P.C. Claude Pain as well as the word of Language experts who have reviewed Derek's Police statement. If you are interested in the case, I'd recommend this book.

On top of everything else I've read, it convinced me.

Despite three police officers hearing him shout those words.


"these two hooligans were in part to blame for his death."

In part?

[Hoxton Creeper]

And not to forget, P.C. Miles was shot on the 12th November 1952. Committal, trial, verdict, appeal & execution by 28th January, 1953! I believe the defence team protested at only having 2 days to prepare their case and were then given a week.

Iris' book covers other issues concerning how the family suffered, reading that book just filled you with admiration for the fortitude the family had.

[Graham]

Hi Julie,

Up to 80% of repeat offenders have literacy and numeracy skills way below the level needed to gain and sustain employment

The rogue I referred to was former grammar-school, A-Levels and all that, and his dad was a police sergeant! He started off doing it for thrills, but then it became serious. When I knew him, he had never been caught. His motto might have been: Crime Pays - And You Don't Get Taxed On It!

Graham

[Limehouse]

Hi Julie,



I suppose if you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer, then making a living by pinching off others is marginally better than sitting on your bum staring into space. When I was younger I knew a bloke who'd rather have made £1 illegally than £5 legitimately, and he was all the happier for it - very much like Hanratty, I'd say. All well and good, until it's your house that gets burgled....Graham

I totally agree Graham. I remember a burglary at our home when I was six years old. My mother was seriously ill in hospital and it was near to Christmas. We had been to visit her and when we returned home the house had been ransacked. It turned out to be someoine who was working with my dad and knew opur circumstances and knew we would be out that evening. What a scumbag.

There is no excuse for criminality - but even in this day and age - the figures speak for themselves. Up to 80% of repeat offenders have literacy and numeracy skills way below the level needed to gain and sustain employment. There is definitely a link between low educational achievement and criminality and it is an issue we need to tackle as a society or I fear for our future.

[Graham]

Hi Julie,

I have also noticed similarities in Bentley's background and that of Hanratty and have previously mentioned the possibility that the war may have had an effect on their behaviour but also that their learning difficulties may have prompted them to persue a criminal career because it rewarded them and made them feel that they could do something well - even if it was illegal and they actually - to outsiders- made a pig's ear of it.

I suppose if you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer, then making a living by pinching off others is marginally better than sitting on your bum staring into space. When I was younger I knew a bloke who'd rather have made £1 illegally than £5 legitimately, and he was all the happier for it - very much like Hanratty, I'd say. All well and good, until it's your house that gets burgled....

Graham

[Limehouse]

I did read Yallop's book ages ago, and also remember the BBC film. Wasn't there a lot of controversy concerning the calibre of the bullets found on the roof, and that of the bullet that killed Miles? I think it was suggested that Miles could have been killed by a bullet from an armed policeman.

A stitich-up, in my opinion.

Odd how Bentley and Hanratty had similar backgrounds, upbringings, personalities and lifestyles.

Graham

Hi Graham

Yes - there was some debate over whether PC Miles was actually shot by Craig's gun or one of the other policemen on the roof.

I don't think that there was ever any doubt that - whoever fired the shot - a policeman died and someone had to pay. In a strange way I can understand that reaction - after all the policeman was doing his job and these tow hooligans were in part to blame for his death. However - alothough I can understanjd the reaction - I cannot excuse it. Bentley deserved consideration for his poor cognitive skills and it is very likely that if Craig had been old enough to hang he would have done and Bentley would have been imprisoned.

I have also noticed similarities in Bentley's background and that of Hanratty and have previously mentioned the possibility that the war may have had an effect on their behaviour but also that their learning difficulties may have prompted them to persue a criminal career because it rewarded them and made them feel that they could do something well - even if it was illegal and they actually - to outsiders- made a pig's ear of it.

[Graham]

I did read Yallop's book ages ago, and also remember the BBC film. Wasn't there a lot of controversy concerning the calibre of the bullets found on the roof, and that of the bullet that killed Miles? I think it was suggested that Miles could have been killed by a bullet from an armed policeman.

A stitich-up, in my opinion.

Odd how Bentley and Hanratty had similar backgrounds, upbringings, personalities and lifestyles.

Graham

[larue]

ditto. I have have also had an interest in this case. i'll track down a copy. thanx for the info.

[Limehouse]

Thanks Hoton Creeper (fantastic name!). I have had an interest in this case for many years but did not know that Iris had written a book. I will certainly seek it out.

Every time I think about this case I burn with anger - not just for Derek and his family - but for the family of the PC who was shot. Not only did they have to endure the truama and grief of their loved-one's death - they had to see a young man who could hardly write his own name die whilst the real killer lived on. I am not saying that Craig should have died - just that justice was not served for their loved one by another virtually innocent life being taken.

[Hoxton Creeper]

Craig & Bentley

I have been fascinated with this case since I first saw David Yallop's 'To Encourage The Others' back in 1971. I've read many books on the case but Mei Trow's 'Let Him Have It' and Iris Bentley's 'Let Him Have Justice' have been the best. Some of the others don't bear mention, awful stuff.

Iris' is written, as you can imagine, very much from the Bentley side. In it she refers to a 'Thames Reports' programme, in which Chris Craig took a lie detector test. He claimed Derek Bentley never said 'Let Him Have it Chris' and the polygraph confirmed this. I remember the programme, very powerful.

Iris puts forward her case for a Police conspiracy, to remove from Derek any defence against 'Joint Enterprise'. She sites the evidence of P.C. Claude Pain as well as the word of Language experts who have reviewed Derek's Police statement. If you are interested in the case, I'd recommend this book.

On top of everything else I've read, it convinced me.

[ianincleveland]

Another one who should never have hung was Robert Hoolhouse who hung for the killing of Mrs.Dobson at Wolviston in Co.durham in 1936.Though he had a very slim motive,his family were evcited from their cottage by the Dobsons 5 yrs previously,independent witnesses claim to see him at the time the murder was being commited.A footprint by the body was also known not to have been Hoolhouses but he was still convicted mainly due to a scratch on his face.Its now thought extremely unlikely he was the killer.Like Bentley he wasnt very literate or articulate and that seemed to count against him.Hos own lawyer didnt call him to the stand to defend himself so convinced was he of a Not Guilty verdict.the jusry found Hoolhouse guilty within an hour.

by any standards there was reasonable doubt he was innocent.

[larue]

a tragic story indeed...

while there was no problem of identification, there certainly did seem to be some difference of opinion regarding the actual events on that rooftop.

i cannot imagine what the Bentley family went through, as the machinery of 'justice' ground relentlessly onwards, till it crushed them.

many people, mainly police, judiciary etc etc bang on aboot 'joint purpose' and how if two or more people engage in a crime they are 'equally responsible', and 'equally guilty'. shame then, that that 'equality' was not carried over to the sentencing, because they certainly did not recieve 'equal punishment'

obviously, as a policeman had been killed, someone was going to hang for it. to the shame of the english justice system, no-one on the prosecution side seemed to care who it was...