Craig and Bentley

[Tecs]

Hi Tecs

I think there has been research showing that - in a time of war and in years following a war - juvenile deliquency rises considerably. Some of the worst criminals of the 20th century were born or raised during a time of war - including the Krays - Brady and Hindley - Peter Sutcliffe and of course Bentley - Craig - Hanratty - and Timothy Evans also come in to this category.

Julie

Hi Julie,

It drives me mad when people say that the world today is a dreadful place. There have always been criminals, crime and juvenile delinquency. People just don't remember it when they are looking back through their rose coloured spectacles.

Regards,

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma. I don't believe that most boys who had guns in those days had them as weapons. I think it was more common to collect them as souvenirs - although I believe some of them may have used them for target practice on old tins cans in the woods and in various derelict buildings.

Julie

Interesting Julie.Yes,that makes sense.
Very interesting posts.

Norma

[Limehouse]

Hi Limehouse,

This is a very interesting point.

There are scores of reports of men who had served in the trenches and experienced things that nobody in civilian life could ever equate with, behaving in a way that today would be unacceptable.

My great grandfather, when drunk, apparently was quite handy with his fists. On the surface he sounded like a nasty piece of work. But when you consider that he was wounded at the Somme, saw his friends massacred and died in his fifties from complications from being gassed it puts him in a bit of a different light.

Who knows how it can affect a person to go through such things?

Sadly, we still have to enforce the law when necessary. You can't just let somebody off with a crime because they've had a bad time.

Regards,

Hi Tecs

I think there has been research showing that - in a time of war and in years following a war - juvenile deliquency rises considerably. Some of the worst criminals of the 20th century were born or raised during a time of war - including the Krays - Brady and Hindley - Peter Sutcliffe and of course Bentley - Craig - Hanratty - and Timothy Evans also come in to this category.

Julie

[Limehouse]

Interestingly though, Craig was released and became a model citizen, never once being in trouble again.

I wonder why he was the exception and didn't reoffend?

Regards,

Hi Tecs

Craig was just 16 at the time of the crime. In prison he had a lot of time to reflect and to learn a trade (plumbing). He also had a supportive family.

Christopher and his brother Niven were two law-breaking brothers from a family of eight children. Their father was a bank official and - for the time - the familiy lived in relative comfort.

I think Craig felt genuine remorse for the death of PC Miles and especially for Derek. He probably felt that the least he could do was to make a decent citizen of himself when he finally served his time.

Julie

[Limehouse]

Thanks Julie.I really need to read up on it.I would question the idea that it was ever "very common" though, for boys to have guns in Liverpool.They certainly had knuckle dusters and knives and chains were favourite fighting weapons among teddy boys of the 50"s in Liverpool and Birkenhead,but I never heard of any guns being a regular item of weaponry for boys on Merseyside.
Regards,
Norma

Hi Norma. I don't believe that most boys who had guns in those days had them as weapons. I think it was more common to collect them as souvenirs - although I believe some of them may have used them for target practice on old tins cans in the woods and in various derelict buildings.

Julie

[Tecs]

It was however inexcusable for Craig to go out equipped with a loaded gun. He was - apparently - obsessed with gangster movies and fancied himself as a gangster hero - especially since his adored older brother had been locked up for armed robbery.

Julie

Interestingly though, Craig was released and became a model citizen, never once being in trouble again.

I wonder why he was the exception and didn't reoffend?

Regards,

[Tecs]

mentioned the possibility that the war may have had an effect on their behaviour

Hi Limehouse,

This is a very interesting point.

There are scores of reports of men who had served in the trenches and experienced things that nobody in civilian life could ever equate with, behaving in a way that today would be unacceptable.

My great grandfather, when drunk, apparently was quite handy with his fists. On the surface he sounded like a nasty piece of work. But when you consider that he was wounded at the Somme, saw his friends massacred and died in his fifties from complications from being gassed it puts him in a bit of a different light.

Who knows how it can affect a person to go through such things?

Sadly, we still have to enforce the law when necessary. You can't just let somebody off with a crime because they've had a bad time.

Regards,

[Hoxton Creeper]

And im satisfied the correct outcome came from the initial trial, though life imprisonment would have been preferable.

Criminals used to have a culture of patting each other down before going on "jobs" to check each other for firearms. The risks of armed robbery being so serious. The death of a policeman being a serious crime, no matter how you "shake that down."

Criminals maybe, Craig was a leary 16 year old and Derek Bentley had an age not much more than 12.

Clearly Jase, we're not going to agree and why not? We're all entitled to our view, mine doesn't make yours wrong and vice vera.

I've read a lot on this, for me I don't believe justice was served on Jan 28 1953. Neither was Derek Bentley a saint, he was involved in a robbery that night. Is it possible that Policemen contrived to remove from Derek a defence from 'Joint Enterprise'? Yes, I believe so. Did Raynor Goddard give a biased summing up? For me, I believe he did.

Why did P.C. Claude Pain never get called? Surely if he confirmed the others story, more grist to the mill wasn't it? No, for me, it was a case of 'an eye for an eye'. Had Craig been 19 as well and they'd both been hanged, the story would have died there but Brits have a view on 'Justice', Derek Bentley never got 'Justice'.

Please read Iris' book. It's a 'Bentley Tale' no question but read the final few chapters. I make no case for glossing over the death of a Policeman on duty, Poor Sid Miles is perhaps the poorest served character of the whole sorry tale but even his wife, while Derek was in the Condemned cell made clear her view he shouldn't hang.

My son is now 21. I shudder when I think of myself in William Bentley's place.

I have my view, you have yours. Each to his own.

[sdreid]

If the crime had happened in America today, I'm not sure Bentley would have even been found guilty. Craig would probably be tried as an adult and given life although with a chance for parole after 30 years or so. Just conjecture on my part. If Craig was 18, he would probably get the death penalty as he would have in England then also.

[Natalie Severn]

Guns were fairly easy to come by at the time. A hangover from the war years.

Perhaps.But thats not what I was saying .My point is that there were very few boys running round with guns in Merseyside in the 50"s---or was this case earlier than that?

[jason_c]

Thanks Julie.I really need to read up on it.I would question the idea that it was ever "very common" though, for boys to have guns in Liverpool.They certainly had knuckle dusters and knives and chains were favourite fighting weapons among teddy boys of the 50"s in Liverpool and Birkenhead,but I never heard of any guns being a regular item of weaponry for boys on Merseyside.
Regards,
Norma

Guns were fairly easy to come by at the time. A hangover from the war years.

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Julie.I really need to read up on it.I would question the idea that it was ever "very common" though, for boys to have guns in Liverpool.They certainly had knuckle dusters and knives and chains were favourite fighting weapons among teddy boys of the 50"s in Liverpool and Birkenhead,but I never heard of any guns being a regular item of weaponry for boys on Merseyside.
Regards,
Norma

[Limehouse]

Hi Julie,


Sorry Julie, I guess I have missed something here .What were Craig and Bentley doing with a gun in the first place ? I mean people don"t normally go round carrying guns do they?

Norma

Hi Norma

Craig had a gun but Bentley did not know this. Bentley did however have a knuckle duster which was a gift - I think from Craig.

Bentley had no history of violence but did have convictions for theft. He was almost totally illiterate and had the mind of a child.

At the time - it was relatively common for boys to have guns (there were many unlicensed guns around since people acquired them during the war). It was however inexcusable for Craig to go out equipped with a loaded gun. He was - apparently - obsessed with gangster movies and fancied himself as a gangster hero - especially since his adored older brother had been locked up for armed robbery.

Julie

[jason_c]

Guildford Four. Birmingham Six...............I'm convinced. You rule out Police collusion then? P.C. Claude Pain claims he never heard the words. However you shake that down, a Police statement is incorrect somewhere.

I'm satisfied with the conclusion Iris draws in her book.

And im satisfied the correct outcome came from the initial trial, though life imprisonment would have been preferable.

Criminals used to have a culture of patting each other down before going on "jobs" to check each other for firearms. The risks of armed robbery being so serious. The death of a policeman being a serious crime, no matter how you "shake that down."

[Hoxton Creeper]

Despite three police officers hearing him shout those words.


"these two hooligans were in part to blame for his death."

In part?

Guildford Four. Birmingham Six...............I'm convinced. You rule out Police collusion then? P.C. Claude Pain claims he never heard the words. However you shake that down, a Police statement is incorrect somewhere.

I'm satisfied with the conclusion Iris draws in her book.