Sweeney Todd?

[baracine]

Will wonders never cease?

From Wikipedia's entry on Saint Nicholas:

Another legend tells how a terrible famine struck the island [of Myra, in Anatolia] and a malicious butcher lured three little children into his house, where he slaughtered and butchered them, placing their remains in a barrel to cure, planning to sell them off as ham. Saint Nicholas, visiting the region to care for the hungry, not only saw through the butcher's horrific crime but also resurrected the three boys from the barrel by his prayers. Another version of this story, possibly formed around the eleventh century, claims that the butcher's victims were instead three clerks who wished to stay the night. The man murdered them, and was advised by his wife to dispose of them by turning them into meat pies. The Saint saw through this and brought the men back to life. This alternative version is thought to be the origin of the English horror legend of Sweeney Todd.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas_Day

[baracine]

"L'Auberge Rouge" 1951 and 2007

Thank you so much for the kudos. I'm discovering most of this along with you. I just hope I can stop...

Here are excerpts from the 1951 Auberge Rouge film (with Fernandel and Françoise Rosay):

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=koMlQZnga9Y

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=_iS3oQmhnBU

and the trailer of the 2007 version:

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=Eef6SUnN8yY

The Auberge Rouge affair tells of a couple of peasant innkeepers and their man-servant who had reputedly dispatched more than 50 of their guests over a period of 15 years, feeding their bodies to their pigs. They were found guilty and decapitated in 1833 but the facts of the case are still hotly debated. The fictional black comedy film versions tell of a priest who receives the innkeeper's wife's confession and tries his darndest to keep the murderers from killing any more innocent victims even though he is bound by the secret of confession.

[Mike Covell]

Wow

Thanks for all these magnificent posts, I have never really delved into anything regarding Sweeney Todd, other than watching the occasional TV show.

This stuff really fascinates me.

What a way to make an entrance to the Casebook Forums.

Well done and welcome.

[baracine]

The legend of Saint Nicholas

Finally, delving a little deeper - the bottom of the barrel, so to speak, there is a French folk/children's/Christmas song/cautionary tale about Saint Nicholas resuscitating three lost children who had been killed, butchered and transformed into salted meat by a wicked butcher. The meat had cured for seven years before the saint's intervention. These are the original French lyrics:

Refrain:
Ils étaient trois petits enfants
Qui s'en allaient glaner aux champs.

Tant sont allés tant sont venus,
Que sur le soir se sont perdus.
S'en sont allés chez le boucher:
Boucher voudrais-tu nous loger?
(Refrain)

2. Entrez, entrez petits enfants
Il y a d'la place assurément.
Ils n'étaient pas sitôt entrés,
Que le boucher les a tués.
(Refrain)

3. Saint Nicolas au bout d'sept ans
Vint à passer dedans ce champ,
Alla frapper chez le boucher:
Boucher voudrais-tu me loger?
(Refrain)

4. Entrez, entrez, Saint Nicolas,
Il y a d'la place, il n'en manqu' pas.
Il n'était pas sitôt entré
Qu'il a demandé à souper.
(Refrain)

5. On lui apporte du jambon.
Il n'en veut pas, il n'est pas bon.
On lui apporte du rôti.
Il n'en veut pas il n'est pas cuit.
(Refrain)

6. Du p'tit salé je veux avoir,
Qu'il y a sept ans qu'est au saloir.
Quand le boucher entendit ça,
Bien vivement il se sauva.
(Refrain)

7. Petits enfants qui dormez là,
Je suis le grand Saint Nicolas.
Le grand saint étendit trois doigts,
Les trois enfants ressuscita.
(Refrain)

8. Le premier dit: J'ai bien dormi.
Le second dit: Et moi aussi.
A ajouté le plus petit:
Je croyais être en paradis.
(Refrain)

... and the melody: http://www.musicanet.org/robokopp/french/ilsetaie.mid

This is an English version:
http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=370

[baracine]

Hi baracine,

Good information there. I always love seeing how older stories influence newer ones, which influence others after that.

So do I. This is usually what happens with fiction: an endless hall of mirrors. I have the advantage of being an English-to-French translator by profession so that those trans-Channel pilferings (or in this case, intra-national, with Fouché's 1816 artful but dubious memoir-filler reprising a 500-year old Parisian legend) are somewhat more immediately apparent to me. Although I was born in Quebec, the French CBC television network (Radio-Canada) has also exposed me to virtually every filmed version of the aboved-mentioned French novels during my formative years. And I have since given in whole-heartedly to reading them after not being able to afford them as a teenager.

A heads-up here: One such serial murder story, this one apparently truly based on fact, even though it was fodder for numerous Grand-Guignol plays and variants, is L'Auberge Rouge. The 1951 film version, with Fernandel, is an incomparable black comedy classic, unfortunately unavailable on DVD but it has just been remade as a French comédie noire, coming to a cinema near you. See: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0880440/

It's based on a true crime story that took place in 1833 - the Auberge de Peyrebeille affair. See: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auberge_de_Peyrebeille . It amply deserves its own thread.

[jmenges]

I agree. Thanks for those posts. Interesting read.

JM

[Dan Norder]

Hi baracine,

Good information there. I always love seeing how older stories influence newer ones, which influence others after that.

[baracine]

"Les Mystères de Paris", Eugene Sue, 1842-1843

Finally, anyone delving into the immediate sources of The String of Pearls: A romance (1846-1847) would have to consider (1) Les Mystères de Paris (1842-1843), another sprawling, immensely popular, serialized exposé of the lower depths of a national capital, which inspired a whole genre of melodramatic, socialist-tinged, gritty-realist novels, from Hugo's Les Misérables to Dickens' A Tale of Two Cities, with their various Thénardiers, mob violence and assorted vengeful harpies; and (2) Dumas' Le Comte de Monte-Cristo (1844-1845) with its theme of false imprisonment, abducted loving wife, double identity and long-delayed, terrible revenge. This theme was very much "in the air" when TSOP came out... on year before the 1848 Revolution in France.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Myst%C3%A8res_de_Paris

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Count_of_Monte_Cristo

[baracine]

the "rue des Marmousets" legend

Here is at least one version of the original rue des Marmousets legend. In this version, the victim is a German student instead of a nearby young French nobleman, he survives his ordeal and he doesn't have a dog. The barber is also hoist by his own petard and actually killed by his accomplice. (From http://www.paris-pittoresque.com/histoire/16-2.htm , inspired by Paris à travers les âges, histoire nationale de Paris et des Parisiens depuis la fondation de Lutèce jusqu'à nos jours, 1879)

An expiatory pyramid was built on the site of the house, which was later demolished in 1536, as no proof could be found of the original decree. The text debates the veracity of the story but affirms that the records of any particularly horrible case would have been destroyed in order to make it unbelievable to future generations.

Non loin de là, dans la Cité, était une rue tirant son nom de l'hôtel des Marmousets, bâti vers la fin du XIIe siècle et qui prit le nom de rue des Marmousets. On prétend qu'il s'y passa, en 1387, une aventure qui est rapportée par divers historiens, mais dont l'authenticité n'est nullement établie ; nous ne la mentionnons donc qu'à titre de racontar, aucun des chroniqueurs d'autrefois ne s'accordant sur sa véritable date.



On avait vu entrer chez le barbier un écolier
qui venait d'Allemagne.


Voici le fait : Un barbier et un pâtissier tenaient boutique à côté l'un de l'autre et la cave du barbier était attenante à celle du pâtissier dont on estimait fort les pâtés qu'il préparait lui-même, car, malgré la vogue qu'il avait su acquérir, il n'avait qu'un seul apprenti pour manipuler la pâte, sous prétexte de cacher le secret de l'assaisonnement des viandes.

Son voisin le barbier-baigneur-étuviste méritait sans doute aussi la faveur du public, car, bien qu'on vît peu de monde entrer chez lui, il paraissait avoir de nombreux clients pour la saignée ; souvent on pouvait remarquer devant sa porte un ruisseau de sang, contrairement aux ordonnances qui enjoignaient aux barbiers de jeter ce sang à la rivière. Un soir, des cris perçants sortirent de la boutique du barbier, chez lequel on avait vu entrer un écolier qui venait d'Allemagne. Soudain cet écolier reparut, se traînant avec peine sur le seuil, tout sanglant, le cou sillonné par de larges blessures.

On entoura le blessé, on l'interrogea et il raconta comment le barbier, après l'avoir fait asseoir pour le raser, lui avait tout à coup donné un coup de rasoir qui lui entama la chair. Il avait crié, s'était débattu, et à grand'peine il était parvenu à détourner les coups de la lame tranchante, à saisir son ennemi à la gorge et à le précipiter dans une trappe ouverte à côté de lui.

La foule, frémissant d'horreur à ce récit, pénétra dans l'ouvroir du barbier et ne vit rien que du sang à terre, la trappe étant refermée ; mais alors on descendit dans la cave et on trouva le pâtissier voisin, occupé à dépecer le corps du barbier. Cet homme avoua que c'était lui qui avait eu la pensée de s'associer avec le barbier pour assassiner les gens : lorsque quelqu'un venait se faire raser, le barbier le plaçait sur la trappe, lui portait un coup de rasoir à la gorge et le poussait dans la cave, où il n'attendait qu'un signal pour accourir aussitôt et se jeter sur la victime qu'il achevait à l'aide d'un couteau et qu'il dépeçait au plus vite pour faire des pâtés avec sa chair, après l'avoir dépouillé de ses vêtements et de son argent qu'il partageait avec le barbier.

Lorsqu'il avait entendu tomber celui-ci, il s'était hâté de se livrer à sa besogne habituelle, n'ayant pas reconnu son complice. « C'est ainsi qu'il composait ses pâtés meilleurs que les autres, dit le P. Dubreul, d'autant plus que la chair de l'homme est plus délicate, à cause de la nourriture. » La maison fut abattue et l'on éleva à sa place une pyramide expiatoire, en mémoire de cet horrible forfait.

Encore une fois, nous considérons cette légende comme une fable ; les registres du parlement de Paris sont muets à cet égard et nous n'avons trouvé nulle part trace officielle de l'événement.

Quoi qu'il en soit, une pyramide élevée au centre d'une petite place carrée existait, et ce lieu appartenait à Pierre Belut, conseiller au parlement en 1535, car il adressa en cette année une requête au roi qui, au mois de janvier 1536, donna des lettres patentes qui lui permirent d'y faire bâtir et réédifier une maison pour être habitée ainsi que les autres maisons de Paris, « nonobstant, ajoutent-elles, ledit prétendu arrêt, sentence du prévôt de Paris, condamnation de l'hôtel de notre dite ville et autres quelconques qui sur ce, pourraient être intervenues ; auxquels arrêts, sentence de condamnation, avions de notre autorité dérogé et dérogeons par les présentes, et sur ce, imposons silence perpétuel a autre procureur présent et à venir. »

Piganiol de La Force, qui rapporte aussi le fait, tout en le mettant en doute, ajoute : « Quoiqu'on ne trouve nulle part ni information ni arrêt qui parlent de ce prétendu crime, il ne s'ensuit nullement qu'il soit faux, car dans les crimes atroces et extraordinaires il a été toujours d'usage, et il l'est encore aujourd'hui (1765), d'en jeter au feu les informations et la procédure, pour ne point les rendre croyables. »

Ce qui est certain, c'est que cette histoire, vraie ou non, a de fortes racines dans la croyance populaire et, dit à son tour le bibliophile Jacob, « il ne fallut pas moins de la formule royale : car tel est notre bon plaisir, pour que les murmures du peuple ne se changeassent pas en voies de fait contre l'oeuvre des maçons, quoique la rue des Marmousets fût grandement transformée par cette place vide et cette pyramide en ruines ».

[baracine]

The "rue de la Harpe" legend

I would simply like to add that the tale found in The Tell-Tale (1824) is itself a rip-off of a probably apocryphal chapter in French chief of police Fouché's memoirs Archives de la police (1816) which tells the 1800 story of a barber named Becque, on rue de la Harpe, in Paris, who connived with his next-door neighbour baker Mornay to liquidate unsuspecting clients.

What makes this story extremely suspicious is its extreme resemblance in detail to the rue des Marmousets story from the XIVth century. In both stories, the murder is discovered because of the persistance of the latest victim's dog who keeps barking at the establishment's door after his master fails to reappear from his shaving session. See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A22691306

In 1816 Joseph Fouché, Duke of Otranto and Minister of Police in France from 1799 to 1815 wrote a book called Archives of the Police. The book revealed the details of the more grisly and sensational cases with which he had dealt. One such concerned a barber called Becque, who had his business premises in a dingy street called the Rue de la Harpe. In 1800, two businessmen on their way to an important meeting stopped by Becque's establishment for a quick shave. When the first businessman had been shaved he headed off to conduct an urgent errand, but promised to return for his friend. When he returned a short time later, he was rather surprised to find his friend had already left. Becque explained that his friend had left hurriedly without saying where he was going. The merchant was suspicious, particularly as his friend had left his dog tied up outside the shop. He settled down to wait in the shop, despite Becque's obvious irritation. As time wore on, with no sign of his friend and the dog becoming increasingly restive, the merchant began to question Becque more thoroughly. At first protesting that he did not know where his friend had gone, Becque finally lost patience with the merchant and threw him into the street.

The merchant began shouting to passers-by that his friend had been abducted by Becque. Parisians, always known for their love of a good dispute, began calling for Becque to come out and explain himself. As the crowd grew, the dog became more and more animated, barking and clawing at the door. Finally the crowd burst in and, led by the dog, began to search the barber shop. What they found shocked them.

In a dark, dusty corner they discovered a hidden set of stairs leading down to a cellar. The walls were flecked with blood and on a table in the centre of the cellar lay a decapitated body. Luckily the police had been attracted by the noise of the crowd and were able to rescue Becque from an immediate lynching. Once the crowd had been cleared, the police were able to examine the room more thoroughly and discovered a hatch in one wall. Upon opening the hatch, they were amazed to find the kitchens of the baker next door. Trails of dried blood made it clear that something had recently been passed through the hatch.

Under questioning, Mornay the baker confessed all. Becque would murder the victims for the contents of their pockets which were split between the two. Mornay disposed of the bodies by mincing up the hunks passed through the hatch and cooking them in his meat pies, pies which were renowned throughout Paris for their full flavour and satisfying zestiness.

The pair were tried and found guilty at the Palais de Justice in 1801. In a punishment seen to fit their crime, they were torn to pieces on the rack rather than executed by guillotine.

Fouché was himself responsible for the wholesale (non-guillotine) murder/execution/supervised massacre of at least 2,000 nuns, priests, bankers and aristocrats during the Terror and must have known what attraction stories of this type have for the general public and how they would influence the sale of his book.

[sdreid]

At this stage, might as well wait for the Blu-ray.

[Sam Flynn]

Absolutely! I fully endorse Sam's recommendation of the Lansbury/Hearn DVD....It's tricky to get hold of but well worth the hassle!!!

It's shortly to be reissued in PAL (UK & Western Europe) DVD format. I have it on pre-order with Amazon, as a replacement for my somewhat manky VHS copy.

[Suzi]

Absolutely! I fully endorse Sam's recommendation of the Lansbury/Hearn DVD....It's tricky to get hold of but well worth the hassle!!!.......Perfection!!!!!

Suzi x

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks, Kensei - although all I did was write a precis of some interesting info I'd read, and lob in the odd idea of my own. Whatever, I'm glad you found it diverting.

[kensei]

To Sam Flynn-

All four pages here have appeared since I was last on and started this thread less than 24 hours ago. I just wanted to thank you for your informational and very helpful answer to my original question. very interesting.

Kensei