Ex-Nazi "Bookkeeper of Auschwitz" Asks for 'Forgiveness'

[Robert]

Fleetwood, I am not saying that the USSR won the war : I am saying that it was the single biggest factor in Germany's defeat.

Of course, at first the Germans carried all before them and if they'd been dealing with a geographically smaller and less populous country, that would have been it. But they were not.

From the opening of operations on the Eastern Front the majority of Germany's forces were engaged there.

[Graham]

Why is that?

Because you don't establish an Empire that paints one-third of the world map red by growing spuds in your back yard. From the Stuart period on, there was nothing 'modest' about English ambitions.

Graham

[Fleetwood Mac]

This is just silly.

Why is that?

[Fleetwood Mac]

I am not of course demeaning the sacrifices of my own country or of the Americans and other countries, but it has to be said that the country that did the most to defeat Germany was the Soviet Union, though it seems to get little credit for it.

The truth is that for much of the war the Russians were an absolute shambles.

Yes, they bore the brunt of the German forces, of course they did, because the West was only ever a defensive war in a bid to prevent a war on two fronts so that the Germans could get down to business in the East.

But, the two biggest encirclements of an army in history occurred on the Eastern Front and that was the surrender of upwards of 600,000 Russian soldiers at Kiev and then again West of Moscow. They also simply ran away in inordinate numbers at the outbreak of war.

No one seems to like to give the Americans their dues and so everyone is quick to shout the Russians won the war, except they were hopeless for large spells.

Only when the Germans had overstretched themselves did they begin to make their numerical superiority count.

The Russians were nothing special, the re-writing of history has completely over-rated their capabilities.

[Graham]

[QUOTE=Fleetwood Mac;338002]

That may be true, but all the same in the West the United States was the senior partner.

The USA had the (initially dormant) manufacturing capacity, but only really became the 'senior partner' at the end of WW2.

England at this point was like an old dog full of pride but lacking the resources of the younger, hungrier dogs.

In 1939, the USA was quite happy being the big country on the other side of the Atlantic from Europe. It had a very small standing army, hardly anything in the way of an air-force, but did have a reasonably large and effective navy. It really just wanted to be left alone in peace and leave war to those nasty Europeans who couldn't keep their greasy hands off each other.

I think it is to our credit that despite the odds stacked against us we kept our heads above water, and I think we're at our best when we're on the defensive.

I think if you read a modern appraisal of WW2, you will understand that although we had our backs to the wall during the first couple of years, after about 1942 we were most definitely not on the defensive.

The most interesting thing I have ever come across is how we had such an empire when it is a typical English trait to want to grow potatoes or flowers in the back garden and generally aspire to such modest ambitions.

This is just silly.

We were never really cut out for war. And, in the days when war was very amateurish we did well because it suited us, but once it became professional we were out of our depth because we're pretty much a people who still believe in amateur values to this day.

This is nearly as silly. Perhaps you might explain precisely when war ceased to be amateurish and became professional? I'm thinking, for example, of the 1000 bomber raids on Germany. Does that strike you as amateurish?

Graham

[Graham]

So I learned the truth about Cuba early on

Which was?

Graham

[Robert]

I am not of course demeaning the sacrifices of my own country or of the Americans and other countries, but it has to be said that the country that did the most to defeat Germany was the Soviet Union, though it seems to get little credit for it.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Just a comment for Roy,

America did not win World War II. It was a joint effort of the allied countries.

Just thought as a Brit I should make that point.

Amanda

That may be true, but all the same in the West the United States was the senior partner.

England at this point was like an old dog full of pride but lacking the resources of the younger, hungrier dogs.

I think it is to our credit that despite the odds stacked against us we kept our heads above water, and I think we're at our best when we're on the defensive.

The most interesting thing I have ever come across is how we had such an empire when it is a typical English trait to want to grow potatoes or flowers in the back garden and generally aspire to such modest ambitions.

We were never really cut out for war. And, in the days when war was very amateurish we did well because it suited us, but once it became professional we were out of our depth because we're pretty much a people who still believe in amateur values to this day.

[Roy Corduroy]

Yes it does Graham. The only problem with Bay of Pigs is it didn't work.

My high school Spanish teacher was a PhD from the U of Havana who had to leave there. So I learned the truth about Cuba early on.

Roy

[Graham]

I'm not ashamed of anything we did in the entire history of the cold war

Does that include the Bay Of Pigs?

Graham

[Errata]

Except Roy was referencing the Cold War.

And in one of those instances where a reasonably intelligent person risks sounding incredibly stupid...

Was Britain not part of the Cold War as well? France does what it will, Germany was otherwise occupied (literally) and Spain doesn't care. But the US, England, and Canada tend to work as a team. Especially when Canada got rid of like 3/4 of their military because they knew we had it covered, and you know, Go Team. Possibly the most brilliant use of a neighbor in world history.

[GUT]

Just a comment for Roy,

America did not win World War II. It was a joint effort of the allied countries.

Just thought as a Brit I should make that point.

Amanda

Except Roy was referencing the Cold War.

[Amanda]

Just a comment for Roy,

America did not win World War II. It was a joint effort of the allied countries.

Just thought as a Brit I should make that point.

Amanda

[Fleetwood Mac]

I think people should be held accountable for their crimes, always.

So, if you're now 96 and you were involved in murder then you should never see the light of day again. Justice should be served. No questions asked about things such as age.

By the same token, if you were a bookkeeper you weren't party to a murder/or mass murder. You were a bookkeeper. No charge to answer.

There is no room for emotion in a court of law, and I prefer the American way where the stand true to the principle of a life for a life. But writing in books is not a crime, nor can it ever be crime by association in a reasonable world.

Any of these people actually involved in mass murder should hang. It is not the duty of the law abiding to fund these people's existence.

What does the US have to be ashamed for recruiting Nazi rocket scientists after the war? The Soviet U "recruited" Nazi scientists too.

I'm not ashamed of anything we did in the entire history of the cold war. Nothing. I'm just glad we won. And I continue to donate $ to get the Jews out of Russia.

Because it not over, not really.

Roy

I would disagree with this. It really matters to have principles, and an amoral world is one not really worth living in.

For a country with such high ideals, particularly at its inception, and with such a proud history; I would have thought the Americans would be steeped in a tradition of wanting to do the right thing - more than most countries.

In the event your goal is to succeed at all costs, then that is a complete disregard for principles, and if you don't have principles there is no satisfaction in 'winning'.

[pinkmoon]

Give him a fair trial find him gulity or very guilty and then deal with him appropriately maybe take him round a few schools and let him explain why he thought it was a good idea to get involved in what he did or stick him on a plane bound for israel or maybe just take him outside and shoot him.