Ex-Auschwitz Guard, Now 93, Charged With 300,000 Counts of Accessory to Murder

[Fleetwood Mac]

I know it seems insane, being that Oskar Groening is 93, but so many of the victims of the holocaust have not lived to see even 10 years of age. This is on a Jack the Ripper site, most people believe that he was responsive for 5 murders, if there was a chance to bring the Ripper to justice (were he still alive) we would take it no? the Nazi's were responsible for millions of deaths, that is not including the deaths involved in war. Groening fuelled this terrible injustice and is both directly and indirectly responsible for the deaths of 300,000, and unlike Herman Goering (who believed that it was his moral duty) this man fled, like a coward and so many others to south america, were he lead a long a fruitful life, and perhaps breathed a sigh of relief because who would pursue him after so long?

Oskar Groening's trail is as relevant today as it was 40 years ago. People forget, and because people forget further atrocities like the holocaust are allowed to be committed.

Couldn't agree more.

To me, assuming he is guilty, of which I have no idea; he has merely evaded justice for more time than than most people do.

93 or 163, you can't allow such crimes to go unpunished.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I've read extensively about Nazi concentration camps, death camps, the einsatzgruppen, and the power structure of the Third Reich, from Hitler on down.

The power structure wasn't as top down as might be assumed.

Recent studies have shown that very few Nazis kept control of a district, and instead they relied on Germans coming forward willingly, and many did to settle petty squabbles with next door neighbours and the like.

I sort of understand your point that events have to be placed in their context, but, really, would you go along with the murder of people to keep your family safe? I would like to think, and I think it is the case, that I just couldn't have that on my conscience; it would be too much of a burden to carry. I would like to think I'd do the right thing whatever the consequences.

But, I don't think you would have been forced into that choice. As said, they weren't in people's lives as much as is sometimes assumed and you and your family could have slipped off somewhere.

If it were a choice between going along with murder and taking my family somewhere else and starting again, I wouldn't have thought twice. Who would want to live in a place inhabited by lunatics who think it's a good idea to murder people because of their religion or race?

[ajcol]

Food for thought?

Hi all,
I don't have any answers, but I thought I'd throw this into the mix:
In 1994 I was a supervisor on an International Fund For Ireland european youth exchange project which involved living and working in Dresden for 10 weeks. Our group was comprised of Protestants and Catholics, male and female, from both sides of the Irish border. Our German host was an organisation called ICE (Christian Initiative Europe) heavily involved in placing mainly German young people in various countries throughout Europe, doing voluntary work in small, often poor communities. As I recall, the ICE project was named "Bridge Building for Europe" or something similar. At the end of our time in Dresden we spent a week in Poland, visiting Auschwitz with some of our ICE hosts while we were there - a sobering and very emotional experience for the entire group including our hosts, and undoubtedly shaped the outlook of those who were there.
ICE was founded by a German, Pater Theobald Reith S.J. who was also the organisation's Director and prime mover - an elderly Jesuit priest, who I had the honour of meeting a few times then and since. An unassuming yet inspirational human being, dedicated to helping understanding and respect between young people of different countries, and one of the nicest people I have met - and I'm not a Catholic....not sure I'm even really a believer!
Pater Theo, as everyone calls him, joined the priesthood after recovering from gunshot wounds and mental trauma after WWII. - he, like many other young men of his generation were indoctrinated into the Nazi mindset at school, in church, and in the Hitler Youth. He joined the Waffen-SS during the last year of the war and was part of Operation Greif behind allied lines during the Battle of the Bulge. Then, his division was moved to Poland to fight against the advancing Red Army, where he was a member of an SS-Einsatzgruppen which took part in the systematic murders of Polish Communists.
He was captured by the Russians, was shot and wounded while escaping back to the retreating German lines, and was evacuated to a sanitorium in southern Germany.
He speaks openly and with great remorse about all of this, and believes passionately that each of us owes it to future generations of all nations to educate young people about the Holocaust and the actions of not only the war, but the Nazi era and their attempt to brainwash an entire generation of German youth.
It goes without saying that what he, and countless others did, is indefensible and horrific - but can what he has done since, in any way 'counter' his previous actions?
I didn't lose any family or loved ones in WWII (that I know of) so I don't feel I have the right to make that decision, but ......food for thought, perhaps?

[dahler101]

I'm not aware of any genocide in the Middle East. Actually I don't like the word 'genocide.' A murder is a murder is a murder.

Saddam Hussein wiped out large populations of Turks with poison gas, and frequently Muslims target people of other faiths, such as Christians or Jews.

gen·o·cide
ˈjenəˌsīd/Submit
noun
the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.
synonyms: mass murder, mass homicide, massacre; annihilation, extermination, elimination, liquidation, eradication, decimation, butchery, bloodletting; pogrom, ethnic cleansing, holocaust

[SirJohnFalstaff]

this man had the choice to do what he did like the vast majority of the participants of the holocaust .

Are we sure about this?

[Patrick S]

I've read extensively about Nazi concentration camps, death camps, the einsatzgruppen, and the power structure of the Third Reich, from Hitler on down. I think it's impossible to relate to what occured inside Germany and throught Nazi occupied Europe during the late thirties and early-forties.

Further, I think it's impossible to fully grasp what people did to survive. It's obvious what those in the death camps had to do in order to survive. Those stories have been told again and again, and they should be. But, I think it's important also to bear in mind how Hitler came to to power and maintained it. Although it didn't begin with the 'Night of Long Knives', I suppose that it's an excellent early example of how Hiter dealt with those he felt were not on-board with his vision for Germany, and those who did not concede his divine right to absolute power.

Hiitler's method for maintaining control permeated the entire Nazi power structure. Hitler, Goering, Himmler, Heydrich, they ALL murdered Germans, fellow Nazis, enablers, opponents, potential opponents, et al. Obviously, this 'style of managment' flowed down through the ranks.

I'm not sure what I'd do to stay alive. But, I know that I would do anything to keep my children alive, my wife. My family. What might someone else do? I don't know. What I do know is that questioning the morality of a thing within the Nazi power structure was a good way to damage one's standing with one's superiors. And that was - to be sure - a road no one wanted to go down.

Is this an excuse for what anyone did? No. It's just a statement that I think needs to be made before we sit in judgement of the actions committed by people living in a world that we cannot possibly understand.

[Errata]

But in any case, while I can understand the concept of Jewish art, or music or literature, the idea of a Jewish economic theory seems very strange. Was the theory of general relativity Jewish?

General relativity is terribly Jewish. We recite it at Passover and everything.

[Robert]

No worries, Errata. I don't try to understand the quote function - I just do it by copy and paste.

[GUT]

Hello GUT, Robert too,

I am 56 soon. Dad died when I was 37 1/2 - to the day and hour- almost infact to the exact minute .
When I read his words so beautifully highlighted here and followed by such lovely compliments from you both- my eyes filled up,,,,

Thank you.

I am genuinely very touched by your kind words and lovely action.


all kindnesses

Phil

G'day Phil

Bet you can't guess why I picked blue?

My family missed most of the war, my Paternal grandfather and his brother tried to enlist in WW I but were rejected as being of more use breaking horses than serving.

My Maternal Grandfather had little education but always told me, and it was only years later that I discovered he hadn't made it up, "All it takes for evil to occur is for good men to do nothing."

[Phil Carter]

G'day Phil

So well put. I wish every dad/grandad would sit his kids down and tell them what your dad said:

"Son...never.....ever.... never ever forget this... and if you are ever in the situation where you can make a difference to stop things like this happening again... don't hestitate. Do it. Just never, ever forget it"

The only thing I'd add, is to all the world's atrocities, like those that have come since. And any war.

Hello GUT, Robert too,

I am 56 soon. Dad died when I was 37 1/2 - to the day and hour- almost infact to the exact minute .
When I read his words so beautifully highlighted here and followed by such lovely compliments from you both- my eyes filled up,,,,

Thank you.

I am genuinely very touched by your kind words and lovely action.


all kindnesses

Phil

[Errata]

Hi Errata

Well, you've explained what you meant, but I must say I'm not too happy about your leaving that quote at the top of your post, because it makes it look like I said it, when I was in fact quoting you.

Actually the Nazis did kill Jews from countries that they didn't invade - puppet states like Slovakia handed them over.

And in the unlikely event that there's some old 100-year-old who took part in the Ukrainian famine still alive, I'm happy for him to be toddled off down to the police station in handcuffs.

Oh wow. Sorry about the quote thing. I'm not entirely sure why it truncated, but it was not my intent. Well, I meant to lop off the Middle East section since I wasn't replying to it. But the rest of it I meant to keep. Bad cutting and pasting on my part. Yes you were quoting me, and I apologize for any perception that I thought you said it... and that just got confusing. My bad. To sum up.

[GUT]

G'day Phil

So well put. I wish every dad/grandad would sit his kids down and tell them what your dad said:

"Son...never.....ever.... never ever forget this... and if you are ever in the situation where you can make a difference to stop things like this happening again... don't hestitate. Do it. Just never, ever forget it"

The only thing I'd add, is to all the world's atrocities, like those that have come since. And any war.

[Robert]

Hi Errata

Well, you've explained what you meant, but I must say I'm not too happy about your leaving that quote at the top of your post, because it makes it look like I said it, when I was in fact quoting you.

Actually the Nazis did kill Jews from countries that they didn't invade - puppet states like Slovakia handed them over.

And in the unlikely event that there's some old 100-year-old who took part in the Ukrainian famine still alive, I'm happy for him to be toddled off down to the police station in handcuffs.

[Errata]

"Nazi Germany hunted down it's own people, and the people in the countries they occupied. They were not targeting the Jews of enemy countries."

Meaning that they certainly killed Jews in countries they invaded, but did not invade countries to kill Jews, nor did they make any attempts to kill Jews in countries they did not invade. The war and the genocide were two separate things. And the genocide only applied where the war was at least temporarily won. The war was for power, territory and money. The holocaust was for racial cleansing. Had the war been about racial cleansing, it would have looked a whole lot different, and they would have gone west and south, not east and north.

Genocide is a multifaceted crime that includes murder, but is not limited to murder. There also has to be a component of terrorism, and it cannot be for material gain. Take the Sudan for instance. Many many people have been killed there, but calling it genocide is a little fuzzy because no single group or ethnicity is being targeted. It is a massive civilian death toll, especially considering the size of the nation. But the civilians are killed because they are on the wrong side. And both sides are doing it, so it's a mess. We think of genocide as mass murder, because we think of the Holocaust when we think of genocide. But the reason the Sudan is genocide is not just because of the killing. It's also because of the rapes and torture, it's also because of the child soldiers. The goal is to destroy these people as a whole, so that no one will take arms against them. It's a kind of total war we aren't used to. Because they are terrorizing civilians, because they are killing them, putting them in camps, removing their ability to either fight back or escape by taking their children, systematically forcing family members to rape each other to ensure that women are so emotionally and physically traumatized that they cannot bear children... that is genocide. A population can be destroyed without murdering the population.

The Spanish inquisition destroyed the Spanish Sephardic Jewish community, no question. And yes, they killed many of them, but the majority either converted out of fear or fled. For hundreds of year after that there were no Spanish Jews. They were not all killed, but they were all destroyed by either becoming no longer Jewish, or no longer Spanish. Thats genocide too. Genocide has to destroy a part of the population, it has to directed by the ruling powers, it must be planned, and the general public has to be encouraged to participate in or support the actions taken. Whether that means death camps, forced abortions, child soldiers, etc. it's all genocide. That why cops don't deal in genocide. The UN does. It's national, if not global. It's not something we in the west deal with a lot. It's not a fear we experience. We got a taste of it for a day or two on Sept. 11, or in July of 2005, but just a taste. That feeling is 1000 times worse in a genocide.

A murder is a murder. And to the families of the victim that is a very personal crime. If genocide was just another name for murder on a massive scale, I would agree with you. But genocide is a social and political crime. It is personal to the victims, but is also an act of terrorism that it committed on a community at large. So really the best way to describe it would be to say that I had family members who were murdered AND were victims of a genocide.

[Robert]

Harry, one reason that the Ukrainian famine hasn't had a tremendous amount of publicity, is that Stalin didn't let western journalists stand there with cameras filming it.

As for Bolshevism being Jewish : was Lenin Jewish? Most of Bolshevism was down to him.

But in any case, while I can understand the concept of Jewish art, or music or literature, the idea of a Jewish economic theory seems very strange. Was the theory of general relativity Jewish?