Language/Accents

[Pcdunn]

No bother, Pat.

Without wanting to contradict you too much, Kent is very much in the South of England.

I'm not so sure that the Jutes would be deemed to be Scandinavian. The Angles, Saxons and Jutes were closely related Germanic tribes.

It may be interesting to note that the idea that the Welsh, Scots and Irish are Celtic while the English are Anglo-Saxon, is a myth created by the Victorians who aimed to promote a super race distinct from other parts of the British Isles.

In fact, Ireland was settled by Vikings and Scotland was settled by Vikings and Anglo-Saxons also. Geneticists have uncovered that there is as much Celtic DNA in northern England as there is in Ireland or Scotland.

I believe that the Vikings who settled Ireland were Norwegian and so they certainly would be termed Scandinavian.

In terms of your ancestors in Kent, back around the 19th century people travelled all over the country for work, moving from one place to another as some industry closed down in one area and another industry opened up in another area. Had you ancestor lived in a town or city, then there's a good chance that person moved from a different part of the country. On the other hand, had your ancestor lived in a rural area, then there's a good chance that his or her ancestors had always lived in rural Kent and may have descended from the Jutes.

Thanks again for morr good information! Appreciate it all.

[Aethelwulf]

My mother's English ancestors were said to have lived in Kent. Anything notable about language or accents there?

Also can't help unhelpfully. What springs to mind about Kent? Well obviosuly first is Pop Larkin, then the White Cliffs, Canterbury, Battle of Britain (think that was generally SE but always think of Kent), long hot summers (probably a myth based on Pop Larkin). Don't actaully mind the modern remake of the darling buds of may, can't match the original but decent.

I would imagine back in the day there were some good accents and dialects down in that little corner, though suspect nowadays it's fallen under the london/essex chav accent.

Something more interesting I know but a bit niche is that there is a theory that sometime in the 6th/7th centuries the Frankish kings across the channel had some sort of authority over Kent and parts of the SE. Although just looked for more recent info (origanl theory was 80s I think) and seems that might not have been the case: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...111/emed.12481

[Fleetwood Mac]

Thanks very much, Fleetwood Mac! (Yes, I'm Pat, by the way).
Will check out your link up thread. Jutes-- interesting! This might explain why my ancestral DNA test has included some Scandinvan heritage, when we didn't know why.
I knew Kent was more middle of the country, neither North or South, but not much more. (Mom also said some of her ancestors were Normans.) Some of her forebears came over early enough to qualify her as a member of the Colonial Dames, and the Daughters of the American Revolution. She also had French and German ancestors (though she thought the latter were "Dutch" for many years before charting her family history.)

My dad's paternal ancestors were Irish, from Country Down and County Clare. They came to the States during the Great Potato Famine, settled in Iowa, then moved west to South Dakota. On his mother's side we had long heard German descent, but she turned out to have stemmed from Luxembourg and Flanders.
Interesting hobby, family genealogy.

No bother, Pat.

Without wanting to contradict you too much, Kent is very much in the South of England.

I'm not so sure that the Jutes would be deemed to be Scandinavian. The Angles, Saxons and Jutes were closely related Germanic tribes.

It may be interesting to note that the idea that the Welsh, Scots and Irish are Celtic while the English are Anglo-Saxon, is a myth created by the Victorians who aimed to promote a super race distinct from other parts of the British Isles.

In fact, Ireland was settled by Vikings and Scotland was settled by Vikings and Anglo-Saxons also. Geneticists have uncovered that there is as much Celtic DNA in northern England as there is in Ireland or Scotland.

I believe that the Vikings who settled Ireland were Norwegian and so they certainly would be termed Scandinavian.

In terms of your ancestors in Kent, back around the 19th century people travelled all over the country for work, moving from one place to another as some industry closed down in one area and another industry opened up in another area. Had you ancestor lived in a town or city, then there's a good chance that person moved from a different part of the country. On the other hand, had your ancestor lived in a rural area, then there's a good chance that his or her ancestors had always lived in rural Kent and may have descended from the Jutes.

[Pcdunn]

I can help you here, Pat, I think it's Pat based upon other posts I've seen anyway.

The people who invaded England a few years back, well, maybe a thousand years back and more; were the Angles, Saxons and Jutes.

You don't hear much of the Jutes these days, but those people colonised Kent (pretty much only Kent).

The Jutes were from Jutland, now part of Denmark.

Kent is sometimes termed: "The Garden of England", due its abundance of orchards, trees, fruits and hops.

On the first page of this thread, I posted a link to British accents and dialect. Within that link, I think there is a modern day woman from Kent talking. That woman is from a place known as 'The Medway', and that accent would be different to other parts of Kent, particularly rural parts of Kent.

Thanks very much, Fleetwood Mac! (Yes, I'm Pat, by the way).
Will check out your link up thread. Jutes-- interesting! This might explain why my ancestral DNA test has included some Scandinvan heritage, when we didn't know why.
I knew Kent was more middle of the country, neither North or South, but not much more. (Mom also said some of her ancestors were Normans.) Some of her forebears came over early enough to qualify her as a member of the Colonial Dames, and the Daughters of the American Revolution. She also had French and German ancestors (though she thought the latter were "Dutch" for many years before charting her family history.)

My dad's paternal ancestors were Irish, from Country Down and County Clare. They came to the States during the Great Potato Famine, settled in Iowa, then moved west to South Dakota. On his mother's side we had long heard German descent, but she turned out to have stemmed from Luxembourg and Flanders.
Interesting hobby, family genealogy.

[GUT]

Who here has had a Saveloy Dip?

I think it's made and eaten only in Durham and Northumberland.

It's a smoked sausage in a roll, swept through gravy or dipped in the fat from the sausage cooking; swathed in stuffing, pease pudding and mustard.

Absolutely lush. If anyone is ever 'round these parts, make sure you try one!

No but scoffed my share of battered Savs

[Fleetwood Mac]

My mother's English ancestors were said to have lived in Kent. Anything notable about language or accents there?

I can help you here, Pat, I think it's Pat based upon other posts I've seen anyway.

The people who invaded England a few years back, well, maybe a thousand years back and more; were the Angles, Saxons and Jutes.

You don't hear much of the Jutes these days, but those people colonised Kent (pretty much only Kent).

The Jutes were from Jutland, now part of Denmark.

Kent is sometimes termed: "The Garden of England", due its abundance of orchards, trees, fruits and hops.

On the first page of this thread, I posted a link to British accents and dialect. Within that link, I think there is a modern day woman from Kent talking. That woman is from a place known as 'The Medway', and that accent would be different to other parts of Kent, particularly rural parts of Kent.

[Pcdunn]

My mother's English ancestors were said to have lived in Kent. Anything notable about language or accents there?

[Aethelwulf]

Aye, I'd agree.

Linguistic experts claim the difference in vowel sounds and the like is due to Viking versus Angle pronunciation.

For example, deed for dead, and deef for deaf, wrang for wrong and so on; were the original Anglo-Saxon pronunciation for whose words.

Those words are still pronounced that way above the line we talking about where the Vikings didn't settle but the Angles did.

Reminds me there are also some differences over very short distances further north. I lived for a few years in Newcastle and the born and bred geordies didn't know half the words some friends from further north in Northumberland used. Two that I remember are 'baree' for good, and somewhat unflatteringly 'mort' for a hot girl. Weird.

[Aethelwulf]

Yes, that reminds me, when I was at Dewhursts there was first-man who ran the shop for the manager, he was from around Durham somewhere. He used to say local expressions that we couldn't understand, just for a laugh. One was something like "gan wam" for "going home", thats the only one I remember.

I think FM mentioned this one earlier - gan hyem/hyam to go home.

[Wickerman]

I think that's central/north Durham and Northumberland thing. I'm from the very south of Co Durham you won't find it there. There are some other differences for such a small area. First time I ever heard 'gan' used for go was when I started secondary school and there were a lot of kids bussed in from further north - not far (less than 10 miles) and they all used gan. It's not common at all in the 'south'. ....!

Yes, that reminds me, when I was at Dewhursts there was first-man who ran the shop for the manager, he was from around Durham somewhere. He used to say local expressions that we couldn't understand, just for a laugh. One was something like "gan wam" for "going home", thats the only one I remember.

[Wickerman]

A meat pie has pastry top and bottom with meat filling. The meat can vary, beef, lamb, chicken, seafood etc (though beef is the default), normally with gravy or some type of sauce and can be mince, chunky, shredded etc, there are also vegetable pies or some add vegetables to the meat.

You got it, steak & Potato, steak & onion, mince beef, steak & veg. Chicken & veg, Chicken pot pie, pulled pork pie, etc.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Generally yes i'd say very similar but I think there is boundary of sorts somewhere not too far north of Darlington where things start sounding a lot more 'Durham' if that makes sense. I think the accents and background south of there draw a little bit more on the very north of Yorkshire and across towards the Boro.

Aye, I'd agree.

Linguistic experts claim the difference in vowel sounds and the like is due to Viking versus Angle pronunciation.

For example, deed for dead, and deef for deaf, wrang for wrong and so on; were the original Anglo-Saxon pronunciation for whose words.

Those words are still pronounced that way above the line we talking about where the Vikings didn't settle but the Angles did.

[Aethelwulf]

Mind you, in places such as Bishop Auckland and Spennymoor, fairly south in County Durham, I'm pretty sure they all use a similar dialect to farther north in Durham.

Generally yes i'd say very similar but I think there is boundary of sorts somewhere not too far north of Darlington where things start sounding a lot more 'Durham' if that makes sense. I think the accents and background south of there draw a little bit more on the very north of Yorkshire and across towards the Boro.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I think that's central/north Durham and Northumberland thing. I'm from the very south of Co Durham you won't find it there. There are some other differences for such a small area. First time I ever heard 'gan' used for go was when I started secondary school and there were a lot of kids bussed in from further north - not far (less than 10 miles) and they all used gan. It's not common at all in the 'south'. Not sure if it makes any difference but the far south isn't on the Durham coalfied, there are no mines or mining heritage and perhaps not as much of that dialect. As you said earlier, the south also has a lot of those Scandinavian names: beck, -by, thorpe. Was just looking at some maps and there seems to be a divide somewhere around Bishop Auckland.

Also, gotta say, can't stand saveloys!

Aye, there were known Viking settlements in the Darlington area, just on the River Tees, and the odd one getting towards the Wear Valley (not far from Bishop Auckland). Toft Hill near Bishop Auckland was a Viking settlement, for example.

Incidentally, Darlington is an Anglo-Saxon name.

And, one of only four complete Anglo-Saxon churches in the country stands at Escomb near Bishop Auckland, built around 670AD.

It's the same on the east side of County Durham also. You can draw a line just north of Hartlepool, and the accent and dialect changes dramatically going above that line.

Mind you, in places such as Bishop Auckland and Spennymoor, fairly south in County Durham, I'm pretty sure they all use a similar dialect to farther north in Durham.

[Aethelwulf]

Who here has had a Saveloy Dip?

I think it's made and eaten only in Durham and Northumberland.

It's a smoked sausage in a roll, swept through gravy or dipped in the fat from the sausage cooking; swathed in stuffing, pease pudding and mustard.

Absolutely lush. If anyone is ever 'round these parts, make sure you try one!

I think that's central/north Durham and Northumberland thing. I'm from the very south of Co Durham you won't find it there. There are some other differences for such a small area. First time I ever heard 'gan' used for go was when I started secondary school and there were a lot of kids bussed in from further north - not far (less than 10 miles) and they all used gan. It's not common at all in the 'south'. Not sure if it makes any difference but the far south isn't on the Durham coalfied, there are no mines or mining heritage and perhaps not as much of that dialect. As you said earlier, the south also has a lot of those Scandinavian names: beck, -by, thorpe. Was just looking at some maps and there seems to be a divide somewhere around Bishop Auckland.

Also, gotta say, can't stand saveloys!