JFK a new twist

[Wickerman]

Hi Graham from what I've read so far I disagree I think it makes perfect sense I have never believed in a conspiracy but something like a secret service agent killing Mr president by mistake would certainly mean a cover up.

So how is it that this shot from the AR15 did not go through the windshield before striking Kennedy?

[pinkmoon]

Yep I saw the show .. and it does all add up . My money is on the tragically accidental third bullet theory .. irrespective of Oswald's part , and who was involved in the original plan .. truth is , there is much evidence ( ignored by the Warren report ) that the final head shot came from the car following the lead car , albeit accidently as the driver accelerated , Agent Hicky ,whilst stood up and holding on to an automatic AR15 fell back, unfortunately unleashing a bullet or two .. one of which exploded on impact with Kennedys head , and the other hitting the fence on the grassy knol ( hence the illusion of a puff of gun smoke from the grassy knol ) .. Huge F***k up and embarrassment for all involved , hence the following cover up . Case Solved

Mortal Error ... Great book .

moonbegger

Hi moonbegger,it makes perfect sense it exlains a cover up also to keep the conspiracy theorists happy Oswald would quite possibly have seen what had happend and wouldn't it be nice if he wasn't about to stand trial.Didn't the Warren report say certain facts would never be released in the lifetime of the people concerned.

[moonbegger]

Yep I saw the show .. and it does all add up . My money is on the tragically accidental third bullet theory .. irrespective of Oswald's part , and who was involved in the original plan .. truth is , there is much evidence ( ignored by the Warren report ) that the final head shot came from the car following the lead car , albeit accidently as the driver accelerated , Agent Hicky ,whilst stood up and holding on to an automatic AR15 fell back, unfortunately unleashing a bullet or two .. one of which exploded on impact with Kennedys head , and the other hitting the fence on the grassy knol ( hence the illusion of a puff of gun smoke from the grassy knol ) .. Huge F***k up and embarrassment for all involved , hence the following cover up . Case Solved

Mortal Error ... Great book .

moonbegger

[Sherlock Houses]

As a poster stated earlier, the agent concerned sued the author of 'Mortal Error' and won his case, which I think says it all. This theory is about as viable as that of Vincent van Gogh being Jack the Ripper.

Graham

Yes, absolutely. It's also about as ridiculous as a theory advanced in the early 1990's that JFK's driver, William Greer, turned around and fired the fatal head shot.

Upon further reflection I suppose it is possible that George Hickey or William Greer could have done it had every other bystander in Dealey Plaza become temporarily blinded for about 10 seconds.

[pinkmoon]

As a poster stated earlier, the agent concerned sued the author of 'Mortal Error' and won his case, which I think says it all. This theory is about as viable as that of Vincent van Gogh being Jack the Ripper.

Graham

Hi Graham from what I've read so far I disagree I think it makes perfect sense I have never believed in a conspiracy but something like a secret service agent killing Mr president by mistake would certainly mean a cover up.

[Graham]

Hi caz,I have nearly finished reading mortal error which is mainly concerned with ballistics and bullet angles it dosnt go into the usual conspiracies in too much detail .The whole thing that strikes me funny is that if there was a cover up afterwards then Bobby Kennedy would have to be involved which I think is just impossible .The only scenario I can see Bobby getting involved in a cover up would be the accidental shooting by a service agent.

As a poster stated earlier, the agent concerned sued the author of 'Mortal Error' and won his case, which I think says it all. This theory is about as viable as that of Vincent van Gogh being Jack the Ripper.

Graham

[pinkmoon]

Hi Pinky,

I watched it too, and I must admit it is the first theory that ticks the boxes for me too, and doesn't have to involve some complex plot, which, by rights, should have come unstuck at some point, particularly with such a public assassination.

So many chances for Oswald's bullets to have missed their mark, or at least to have produced non-fatal injuries to his moving target. His point would have been made: "you are not as popular as you think - you will need to look over your shoulder everywhere you go".

The documentary appeared to demonstrate rather convincingly how only two shots came from Oswald's gun, neither proving fatal, while the third bullet, designed to explode on impact, and which took out much of JFK's brain, came from a rifle so close by that it would explain the smell of gunpowder recalled by witnesses, and also the (apparent) accuracy of the shot. The security agents in the following vehicle would have heard the first shot from the book depository, which sounded like a "firecracker", and had to react instantly. When a second shot came from the same direction, the argument goes that agent George Hickey, with rifle at the ready and acting instinctively to protect the Kennedys from whoever was shooting at them, misfired it, killing JFK in the process.

Whether the other agents could possibly not have realised if that had happened, I have no idea. But if it dawned on them at some point, it would perhaps explain all the strange goings-on afterwards, from getting the body flown out of Dallas for the autopsy against procedure, to notes and photos from the autopsy going missing. Ruby shooting Oswald dead would also have been mighty convenient, if the latter knew very well he had only fired two bullets and might have been able to prove the fatal wound could not have been made by his gun and from that distance.

Similarly, I have always believed that Marilyn Monroe died of an accidental overdose (self-administered), but that certain people were so worried there was more to it that they lied and covered up stuff, which only made it look more like a murder conspiracy and less like a tragic accident.

If you plan such events, surely you factor in what is likely to happen in the immediate aftermath so you don't have to engage in risky or complex damage limitation, lies, cover-ups and further murders.

So on balance I do think Oswald acted alone (ie he believed he was the only one who would be firing at JFK that day), but I can't be sure it was his bullet that did all the damage.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi caz,I have nearly finished reading mortal error which is mainly concerned with ballistics and bullet angles it dosnt go into the usual conspiracies in too much detail .The whole thing that strikes me funny is that if there was a cover up afterwards then Bobby Kennedy would have to be involved which I think is just impossible .The only scenario I can see Bobby getting involved in a cover up would be the accidental shooting by a service agent.

[Sherlock Houses]

Very interesting, SH, and helps to strengthen my long-held feeling that Ruby has inside help from the Dallas PD.

Graham

By all accounts Ruby was on first name terms with the majority of Dallas police officers.
Whether Ruby knew Oswald or not is open to debate. If one studies closely the filmed footage in the basement seconds before Ruby shoots him it appears that Oswald looks fleetingly at Ruby. Almost a look of recognition can be detected on his face.
Just prior to the shooting one can hear a car horn. This may well have been a signal for Ruby to make his move on Oswald.


Re. Ruby's acquaintance with the Dallas police force, the following clip from Mark Lane's very impressive 1967 documentary "Rush to Judgement" is rather enlightening.........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SsnhT3cdEM

[Sherlock Houses]

Any thoughts on what he was doing at a 6th floor window with a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle if he wasn't there to shoot at Kennedy?

Lee Oswald via the nature of his work at the TSBD building had access to most floors including the 6th. Less than 90 seconds after shots rang out in Dealey Plaza Police motorcyclist Marion Baker encountered Oswald on the second floor lunchroom having a bottle of coke. Baker testified that Oswald was completely calm and unruffled and in no way agitated or out of breath. This was witnessed and confirmed by the superintendent of the building Roy Truly.

[Graham]

I believe it's well worth bearing in mind what Dallas Police Officer Billy Grammer had to say on camera back in 1988. Grammer was on communications duty the night before Oswald's transfer and received a very telling phone call from a person who he was convinced was Jack Ruby. This short interview can be viewed via the following link :-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEjT7XCN_R0

Very interesting, SH, and helps to strengthen my long-held feeling that Ruby has inside help from the Dallas PD.

Graham

[Wickerman]

Oswald was a known CIA asset and he was set up to be a patsy. Not only did he not fire the kill shot, he was not a shooter at all.

Hi Kensei.

Are you aware that Oswald was given a Dermal Nitrate test, on both hands and his cheek.
Both hands showed positive for gunshot residue, but not his cheek.

[Bridewell]

Oswald never fired a single shot at John Kennedy. Sadly he was silenced forever within 48 hours before he could prove his innocence.

Any thoughts on what he was doing at a 6th floor window with a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle if he wasn't there to shoot at Kennedy?

[Sherlock Houses]

Ugh, I hesitate to delve into the JFK arena because it is such a hotbed of argument. But it's the 50th anniversary, and I have heard a ton of research into it, and I do have strong opinions. What I will say here are my beliefs.

Oswald was a known CIA asset and he was set up to be a patsy. Not only did he not fire the kill shot, he was not a shooter at all. Witnesses who were ignored by the Warren Commission said that at the time the shots rang out he was in the second floor break room of the Schoolbook Depository building drinking a Coke. The gun he is supposed to have used was notoriously slow and inaccurate, and to have fired three impeccable shots from it from that sixth floor window would have been next to impossible. Plus, there is a large tree in the way blocking the view from the window. Nuff said.

Anyone with a thinking brain who watches the Zapreuder film can see that the kill shot comes from the front, not the back. A piece of Kennedy's skull folds back from the right side of his head as if on a hinge and then detaches, landing on the back of the car where Jackie- freaking out in terror- crawls out and grabs it. She would later produce this macabre piece of tissue in the hospital from her pocket and ask doctors "Will this help?", as if in denial that her husband was dead. The doctors all stated that the back of JFK's head was blown out, clearly indicating that he was shot from the front.

Where did that front shot come from? The notorious "Grassy Knoll." There are photographs or video-grabs that actually show a rifle barrel portruding out of that bunch of shrubbery. Who was that shooter? Well, it is documented that a professional Corsican assassin named Jean Souetre- alias Michel Roux, alias Michel Mertz- was arrested in Dallas the day after the assassination on immigration charges. He was eventually deported and sent away. So what are the odds that a professional Corsican assassin was in Dallas on that day? Why would he be there? Either business or pleasure. How likely is it that he would just happen to be there on vacation? And if he was there on business- well, his business was assassination! I believe this is the man who blew JFK's brains out.

Why?

Current theory- called "conspiracy theory" by the mainstream and thus marginalized- spells out a whole vast range of people who wanted JFK dead and worked together to make it happen. First and foremost was Lyndon Johnson, who had a whole series of corrupt deals in his past that he was hiding from, and who wanted to get involved in war in Vietnam while Kennedy didn't. Then came Castro, who was mad about the Bay of Pigs. Then came the Mafia, who were being targeted by Bobbly Kennedy and had deals with the Cubans they wanted to keep safe. Then came such such petty things as various politicians who were mad about Kennedy having slept with their wives. CIA figure E. Howard Hunt came out with a deathbed confession a couple of years ago in which he spelled all of this out. It sounds unbelievable, but it's true- Lyndon Johnson and the CIA and the Mafia and the Cubans all colluded to take out JFK. There were up to three shooters in place on that day, producing hits on JFK, Governor Connelly, at least one person in the crowd who received a grazing wound, and other impacts on the ground. But Lee Harvey Oswald was not one of them. He was taken out before he could testify.

The assassination of John F. Kennedy was, without doubt, a conspiracy. Why does anyone who believes in conspiracies get branced as crazy? They happen all the time.

More or less my take on the JFK Assassination after many years of study on the subject .

One of the most discernable changes in the aftermath of John Kennedy's assassination was the change in US foreign policy and escalation of the war in Vietnam. Prior to his execution the Vietnam war kept a very low profile and was rarely in the news, afterwards it escalated to an unbelievable degree with ever increasing US military involvement. It was on our TV screens night after night and made untold fortunes for the likes of Bell Helicopters.

As for anyone who believes in a conspiracy re. the JFK assassination the people who brand them crazy are just sad apologists for the totally incompetent Warren Commission Report with it's ridiculous premise that Lee Oswald was the sole assassin of President Kennedy.

Oswald never fired a single shot at John Kennedy. Sadly he was silenced forever within 48 hours before he could prove his innocence.

[Sherlock Houses]

Too facile, Tom. Remember Oswald's words: "I am just a patsy!" Maybe there was supposed to be a car to whisk him away, but maybe it just didn't show up. We really don't know if Oswald had an escape plan or not. Was his 'gruelling interrogation' about the murder of Tippet, or the assassination of JFK, or both? Ruby was indeed at the police station, both by his own admission and the testimony of at least one policeman, so why didn't he shoot Oswald then? Simply because he couldn't get near him. But when Oswald was being transferred, and was in the underground ramp or whatever it was, Ruby was able to confront him with ease. So how did Ruby know the time of Oswald's transferral? Or was it just a good guess? Or coincidence?

I believe it's well worth bearing in mind what Dallas Police Officer Billy Grammer had to say on camera back in 1988. Grammer was on communications duty the night before Oswald's transfer and received a very telling phone call from a person who he was convinced was Jack Ruby. This short interview can be viewed via the following link :-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEjT7XCN_R0

[The Good Michael]

Richard,

I watched that. These agents absolutely dispelled any of those ideas regarding agents being involved. They fully explained why agents weren't on the backs of the cars and why one agent signaled to the others with his hands up. Their behavior was completely innocuous and the story they told was detailed and credible which is far more than conspiracy people have been able to do.

Mike