The United States (Southern end)

[Phil Carter]

Hello Phil,

We haven't thought much beyond the fjords in Norway. We're hoping to jump on a train and just take in the scenery. My main interest is history, so anything you can offer around that will be appreciated - clearly, there's the viking aspect and WW2, but I'm sure there's a lot more on which you can send some information.

Thanks in advance.

Hello FM,

Well, for a start Norway is 3 or 4 times longer than GB in distance from "top to toe"..It takes ages by train to get places because there are no super high speed trains available. Because of the distances involved, driving over long periods and resting up a few days in certain areas is easiest, although I would recommend air travel.

The fjords are out on the Western Coast, from Stavanger and Bergen upwards. They ARE spectacular, yes, but then again the time of year you travel is important too.

The Viking aspect originates mainly from the area I live in, and of course the Viking museum in Oslo, where various Viking boats are kept (one, specifically from my town, 2 hours south of Oslo.).

As far as WWII is concerned.. there are various bases and some museums. In the very north of the country for example, whole towns were burnt to the ground by the Nazi's and nothing pre 1945 exists. Oslo has it's own history of resistance groups, as of course do other areas. The famous heavy water works in Telemark are about 3 hours drive from me.. 4-5 hours from Oslo.

The easiest thing to do is plan the amount of time you have according to what you want to see, but be warned...EVERYTHING in Norway is expensive. Most things are 2 to three times higher than GB prices, and restaurant bills can be very expensive. Even just going to a pub and having a couple of beers will cost you nearer to £20 in Oslo, £17 approx elsewhere. Petrol is the one thing you may find affordable (about £1.50/litre)

The weather is surprisingly hot in the summer...be warned... sometimes much warmer than GB, and as the air is so clear, no smog anywhere, one can get burned rather quickly. 25C is quite regular, 30C plus is known too in the inland areas. But beware the winter drops down to the -20C range....down south.. up north, out in the county of Finnmark, where all the reindeer are, the temperature regularly drops to -50C. The land of the midnight sun is spectacular ... 3 months of no darkness north of the Arctic Circle (June, July and August) as is winter up there too.. no light in November December and January.
It really depends on what you want to see. If the fjords is the thing..May or June would be fantastic...include the 17th May (the National Day) and you will see things that you'll not witness anywhere else in the world.


Norwegians say they are cold people..which is not true.. they are actually really nice people though a little careful at first, then after a beer or two relax warmly. They like English people, adore English football (it's a culture over here to watch the games from the Premier League), and when you first get to know a Norwegian family, or couple, then you are friends for life.


Just pm the details and I will see if I can help somewhere along the line somehow. After 33 years here, I know a few people here and there in the travel business that may be able to help.


Phil

[lynn cates]

The blues for Norway?

Hello Mac.

"We haven't thought much beyond the fjords in Norway."

Pining for the fjords, eh? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello FM,

Drop me a line or two via pm and I will give you a few hints and tips, depending on where you are off to in Norway, or even Scandinavia.

Phil

Hello Phil,

We haven't thought much beyond the fjords in Norway. We're hoping to jump on a train and just take in the scenery. My main interest is history, so anything you can offer around that will be appreciated - clearly, there's the viking aspect and WW2, but I'm sure there's a lot more on which you can send some information.

Thanks in advance.

[Phil Carter]

In sum, really enjoyed the whole trip and would have gone back next year but we've committed to Scandinavia - particularly Norway, but we'll definitely be going back and will probably try Virginia and the Carolinas next time round and we may spend some more time in Tennessee.

Hello FM,

Drop me a line or two via pm and I will give you a few hints and tips, depending on where you are off to in Norway, or even Scandinavia.

Phil

[Fleetwood Mac]

As for the Scots-Irish thing:
It doesn't mean what it sounds like it means. Scotch Irish refers to Presbyterians from Ulster maybe? Ireland. Religious dissenters who came to the colonies and settled in isolated communities not specifically to exclude other religions, but certainly to buffer themselves. A good number of them ended up in the mountains of East Tennessee which was coal country (and is still the most impoverished region in the country), northwest Tennessee, and bordering Mississippi. Because of their isolation their cultures remained purer longer. Up until the Civil War in fact. So culturally these people have had more of an impact on Tennessee culture than any other since a concentrated jolt of it hit a homogenized state. It's where we get country music, our concept of hospitality (which includes a lot of food), it's where the southern accent comes from, the general notion that very few things are worth being rude over. Also our slow pace. It's not that a lot of people here don't come from English stock, but the Englishness didn't stick. Our manner is that of Irishmen practicing a Scottish religion. Which might explain the general crazy.

After the Civil War, the Scotch-Irish were the most likely to intermarry. So anyone who has Native American Blood, or African American blood from awhile back has Scotch Irish ancestry as well. I don't really know why, but that seems to be the common rule. And the English didn't really take to carving out the wilderness the way others did. The French did fine, The Scots, the Irish, the Scotch-Irish... all very good pioneers. Swedes were great too. The English tended to wait until there were cities. So while English ancestry may be more common, it is not older, and it is not as well respected. A person of English descent is considered "merely" English. Meaning nothing special. Unless the person is actually English, and then we fawn.

If I'd thought about it I would have had you drive past the 13th century Welsh border castle someone replicated here. It's called Castle Gwynn, and it has arrow slits, a portcullis, and a hot tub on top of the east parapet.

That's an interesting take on it.

My understanding is that the English were one of the first to arrive, but after the initial colonisation of parts of what is today's US not many Englishmen/women migrated to the US as they preferred Australia (for economic reasons). I was under the impression that the "Scotch-Irish" arrived after the English?

In terms of Irishmen practicing a Scottish religion - you don't wanna say that to them if you're ever in that part of the world! They are fiercely loyal to the British Crown and they do not consider themselves to be Irishmen in any way, shape or form. Their national flag is the English Cross of St George with the Crown of the British Monarch at the top. I was sat in a pub in Beale Street and this flag was in there, along with the Saltaire (Scottish flag) and the British Union Jack.

And, believe you and me, the Scottish as a rule are not laid back people! They're industrious and their levels of cantankerousness are legendary round these parts.

Oh, and Presbytarians weren't religious dissenters. Presbytarianism is the established religion of Scotland and is a much more hard line form of Protestantism than that which was ever introduced in England. Scotland had a proper reformation like Germany; we had a mere falling out with the Pope and maintained some catholic practices to this very day

Edited to add: I have a book in front of me: "Reflections on the South and Southern History: What Caused The Civil War" by Edward L Ayers, who is an historian of the South. According to him, the South looked to Britain, particularly England, for codes of civility and conduct.

But, the English who arrived were probably religious dissenters, as the Church of England had things sewn up and it was a religion of the shires. The towns/cities/industrial areas spawned religions such as Methodism, which concentrated on reforming the masses stuck in a supposed rut of hard labour and alcoholism; their surmons were held outdoors so everyone could attend rather than in a church where not everyone could attend for financial reasons. There is still today the grass pit where John Wesley preached his first surmon to the miners of Cornwall. Just about all of my family were methodists as a lot of miners from Cornwall moved to the Durham coalfields for work, with the exception of my paternal Grandmother who was Scottish who moved here with her Mother who came down during World War One as the head of the family was killed at Ypres (and they were housed with other families who had lost their fathers/husbands, and there were many when you consider that in one day alone on the 1st July 1916, the British Army lost 60,000 men killed, wounded or missing; in a place called Washington Hall - and you can probably guess the significance of this place!).

[Errata]

I thought it the opposite. Very civilised. My impression of the motorways is that Americans tend to abide by the speed limit. In England, we pride ourselves on being courteous drivers; there's an unwritten rule that we let people out when it looks like they'll be stuck at a junction for a while. Thought it was very similar in the US and the cities were very easy to get around.

You wanna try driving in France or Italy. Paris makes driving in the United States look like a walk in the park. They seem to have absolutely no concern for the next person - no unwritten rules, no waiting, no queuing, - if you're not sharp enough they'll nip in front of you and if your car gets damaged in the process then it's your fault.

You must have caught us on a good week.

I had no problems driving in Paris. I had always thought it was because I learned to drive in Nashville.

As for the Scots-Irish thing:
It doesn't mean what it sounds like it means. Scotch Irish refers to Presbyterians from Ulster maybe? Ireland. Religious dissenters who came to the colonies and settled in isolated communities not specifically to exclude other religions, but certainly to buffer themselves. A good number of them ended up in the mountains of East Tennessee which was coal country (and is still the most impoverished region in the country), northwest Tennessee, and bordering Mississippi. Because of their isolation their cultures remained purer longer. Up until the Civil War in fact. So culturally these people have had more of an impact on Tennessee culture than any other since a concentrated jolt of it hit a homogenized state. It's where we get country music, our concept of hospitality (which includes a lot of food), it's where the southern accent comes from, the general notion that very few things are worth being rude over. Also our slow pace. It's not that a lot of people here don't come from English stock, but the Englishness didn't stick. Our manner is that of Irishmen practicing a Scottish religion. Which might explain the general crazy.

After the Civil War, the Scotch-Irish were the most likely to intermarry. So anyone who has Native American Blood, or African American blood from awhile back has Scotch Irish ancestry as well. I don't really know why, but that seems to be the common rule. And the English didn't really take to carving out the wilderness the way others did. The French did fine, The Scots, the Irish, the Scotch-Irish... all very good pioneers. Swedes were great too. The English tended to wait until there were cities. So while English ancestry may be more common, it is not older, and it is not as well respected. A person of English descent is considered "merely" English. Meaning nothing special. Unless the person is actually English, and then we fawn.

If I'd thought about it I would have had you drive past the 13th century Welsh border castle someone replicated here. It's called Castle Gwynn, and it has arrow slits, a portcullis, and a hot tub on top of the east parapet.

[Damaso Marte]

I live in Virginia, albeit the northern part near Washington DC that is considerably different from the rest of the state. If you plan to go there, I'd be happy to give you some recommendations.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Fleetwood!

Glad you had a good trip. I love the Southern US--great people, good prices for just about everything. I hated driving in Nashville (like a giant go-kart track populated by maniacs) and Arkansas (they're highways are worse than cobbled side-streets)

Too bad you didn't get to eat in Texas--they manage to put a quarter-cow on your plate, cooked to perfect, for the price of a coffee and a ham sandwich back home....

I used to think the obsession about the weather was a little much too, until I got stuck between two tornadoes in Texas--not an experience I EVER want to be in again. I went to the nearest Walmart the next day and bought a weather radio

Hello Magpie,

Yeah, I can imagine extreme weather conditions necessitate certain actions!

Thought most things were good value. Cigarettes about 30% of the price paid in England, petrol much cheaper.

Having said that, eating at a restaurant more expensive in the US.

All in all, though, I'd recommend that part of the US to anyone.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I have never, in my entire life, paid what it said (or even close to) on the back of the door, even in sold-out hotels at conventions. I think the 'rate' quoted represents some sort of theoretical maximum legal charge.

For what we paid the hotels were excellent value.

A certain amount of that is because we feel sorry for you that while you seem to be a perfectly decent person, you're not an American. That offends our sense of moral order, and raises the barest shadow of a doubt about our basic conviction that all of our blessings are well-deserved. We respond by making an extra effort to behave as Americans ought.

Well, the American journalist Martha Gellhorn, who I believe was married to Ernest Hemingway, moved to England; and was quoted as saying something like: "I love the English. They don't care what you think about them, and they don't care from which country you hail or where you've been. They're not like the Germans who are always asking what you think about them; the English don't care what you think about them because they're certain they're superior to everyone else. You could go to the most exotic place on earth and when you arrive in England the most they'll say is: "lovely to see you, have a drink".

So, while Americans may be talking to us with sympathetic eyes, we're looking back with conviction of superiority.

Anyway, I'm glad you had a good time!

Thankyou. It really was an interesting experience. At no time were we bored and we could have done with more time there. We have two holidays a year, one in England; one abroad - so we'll be back to the US probably in two years time.

[Fleetwood Mac]

So glad you were made to feel welcome. We adore British accents over here. The mountains of East Tennessee and Western North Carolina are glorious this time of year, which is a really good time to travel here as the scenery is spectacular (most years) and the kids back in school so the touristy sites are less crowded.

And of course, Virginia is central to our history as well as having quite wonderful scenery as well. South Carolina is terrific for its beaches (its history is more difficult to cut through as it was organized differently in the early days) and there are even some restaurants in Beaufort and Hilton Head that I like, perhaps you might too.

So glad you enjoyed it enough to plan another trip.

Hello Curious,

Yes, thoroughly enjoyed it.

Came back with some great memories, and knowing what I know now I wish I'd gone there for a holiday about 20 years back and hopped on the greyhound to get around.

I did speak to one bloke about Virginia and the Carolinas and he said that no one lives in Virginia and the Carolinas are sea-faring people, although not quite sure what he meant by that because I'd imagine they're not sailing round the world looking for an hitherto lost continent!

Looking forward to a trip to Virginia for the history.

[Fleetwood Mac]

We ARE a giant Go Kart track populated by maniacs. Also our streets were laid out back when cocaine was a cure all, which is why you can pass about 10 streets in a row where you can't turn left.

New Orleans, Alabama, and Tennessee (especially Nashville) are preoccupied with weather simply because we have crazy weather.

I thought it the opposite. Very civilised. My impression of the motorways is that Americans tend to abide by the speed limit. In England, we pride ourselves on being courteous drivers; there's an unwritten rule that we let people out when it looks like they'll be stuck at a junction for a while. Thought it was very similar in the US and the cities were very easy to get around.

You wanna try driving in France or Italy. Paris makes driving in the United States look like a walk in the park. They seem to have absolutely no concern for the next person - no unwritten rules, no waiting, no queuing, - if you're not sharp enough they'll nip in front of you and if your car gets damaged in the process then it's your fault.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Ethnically, the white people in the Southern US tend to be English or Scots-Irish...in other words, you shouldn't be surprised that they are about as tall as what you have back home.

If you want Aryan Supermen who tower over you, visit the upper Great Plains. Michigan, Wisconsin, North Dakota, South Dakota, etc. This area received substantial Scandinavian immigration in the 19th century.

A recent study had the Dutch as the tallest lot in Europe, with an everage height of 5'11, then the English 5'10 and a half, then the Germans 5'10. I would have said the average was more like 5'7 to 5'8 in the Southern US.

What is meant by 'Scots-Irish'? When we were in Tupelo at Elvis's birthplace, which was another well thought out and ordered museum, the story given was that the people who moved inland were 'Scotch-Irish' who did not accept English rule in the coastal areas. It appears to me that there is a monumental contradiction in terms in that summary, and it was interesting to see that right over the road there was a methodist church - Methodism being an English religion. In the Country and Western museum in Nashville, it was noticeable that at least 85% of those in the hall of fame had English surnames and the rest Scottish. To be fair, in that museum it states that the musical roots of Country and Western are from the British Isles, mainly English folk music; whereas other museums make no mention of any English influence.

And, unsurprisingly, I have absolutely no interest in visiting North Dakota for the express purpose of a hunt for supermen, but I am curious as to what exactly is meant by the term 'Scotch-Irish'.

[Errata]

Hi Fleetwood!

Glad you had a good trip. I love the Southern US--great people, good prices for just about everything. I hated driving in Nashville (like a giant go-kart track populated by maniacs) and Arkansas (they're highways are worse than cobbled side-streets)

Too bad you didn't get to eat in Texas--they manage to put a quarter-cow on your plate, cooked to perfect, for the price of a coffee and a ham sandwich back home....

I used to think the obsession about the weather was a little much too, until I got stuck between two tornadoes in Texas--not an experience I EVER want to be in again. I went to the nearest Walmart the next day and bought a weather radio

We ARE a giant Go Kart track populated by maniacs. Also our streets were laid out back when cocaine was a cure all, which is why you can pass about 10 streets in a row where you can't turn left.

New Orleans, Alabama, and Tennessee (especially Nashville) are preoccupied with weather simply because we have crazy weather.

[Damaso Marte]

Ethnically, the white people in the Southern US tend to be English or Scots-Irish...in other words, you shouldn't be surprised that they are about as tall as what you have back home.

If you want Aryan Supermen who tower over you, visit the upper Great Plains. Michigan, Wisconsin, North Dakota, South Dakota, etc. This area received substantial Scandinavian immigration in the 19th century.

[Ginger]

Hotels: good value for money. We got them cheaper than that which was advertised on the back of the room door

I have never, in my entire life, paid what it said (or even close to) on the back of the door, even in sold-out hotels at conventions. I think the 'rate' quoted represents some sort of theoretical maximum legal charge.

The people: warm, friendly, made to feel welcome.

A certain amount of that is because we feel sorry for you that while you seem to be a perfectly decent person, you're not an American. That offends our sense of moral order, and raises the barest shadow of a doubt about our basic conviction that all of our blessings are well-deserved. We respond by making an extra effort to behave as Americans ought.

English roots: seems to be a conflict. Some museums talk it up and others make no mention of it preferring to focus on the "Scots-Irish" (which I'm not sure that they've grasped that the people they're talking about were not loyal to Ireland), the Germans and others.

That's deeply enough engrained that I never really thought about it. I grew up having my ancestry described as "Scots-Irish", even though it's very plainly English with a Cherokee great-grandmother. Thinking back, there may have been some irony in the description that went over my young head. My grandmother could be almost imperceptibly sarcastic when she wanted to be.

Anyway, I'm glad you had a good time!