Just where do we go from here?

[The Good Michael]

(See the recent events in Paris with the Paris Saint Germain. Hear the insults at every match. Listen to those who like this sport but cannot bring their children to certain stadiums.)

This is why football pales in comparison to rugby. Ill-mannered lot, and that's just the fans.

Mike

[DVV]

Hear, hear, casebookers !

The doctrine of jihad, the life of prophet Muhammad, the numerous war-like hadiths, the concept of "Dar al-harb", etc, have no influence whatsoever on current islamic terrorism.

We are only facing a handful of loonies who have never read a single line of the koran.

What a relief !

For sure, that passing, trifling and meaningless problem will soon be behind us.

[Limehouse]

Ally, your request amazes me. Can you really not remember your own post? Here it is:



OK, that post is clearly an attack on me. Based upon an uninformed and completely wrong supposition you accused me of not being "offended" "in the first 20 pages when horrific things were being said about Islam".

Not offended?? I was APPALLED, ASHAMED, AND SICKENED. I still am.

I would hope that anybody who actually knows me would know I would be horrified by such vicious bigotry.

You accused me of only being offended by the posts on Christianity- in other words, you accused me of religious bigotry. I consider that a deeply offensive personal attack on my moral integrity. So do many others who have read your post.

I utterly despise bigotry, racism, and hate speech. I believe that all mean and women are created equal, and we are all the children of God- ALL of us.

I believe God endowed us all with Free Will, Consciences, and Immortal Souls -
Even you Ally. Though you probably won't like that idea... but that's your choice. You have Free Will.

I believe it's up to each of us what we choose to do with those remarkable gifts, how we treat others, and how we live our lives. Some day each of us will be called to account, and we'll all see with new clarity all the good things we have done, all the love and kindness we have spread, and also where we have fallen short and hurt others.

When it's time for me to account for my own life, I hope I won't be sorry and ashamed. I hope others won't be sorry and ashamed either.

Now I'm going to follow the collective advice of my friends and get away from Casebook. I've been torn about this, because so many others are staying away. I apologize to those who asked me to stay. But stress has a negative impact on my health, so I have to do the sensible thing.

I sincerely appreciate all the friends I've made here.

Peace everybody.
Archaic

I am very sad to see a poster who is so respected and has supported so many friends on this site driven away by the vicious and obnoxious comments that have been made on this thread.

Thankfully, the poster who has been, in my opinion, the most offensive and objectionable contributor has now been suspended.

I hope, in time, Archaic will feel she is able to return to the site as she will be greatly missed.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I'm truly delighted by "Vichy", the last desperate coinage of our so-cool-Jew-who-has-Muslim-friends.
I proved her wrong and ignorant, so I must be an anti-Semite and a nazi.
How silly and comic.

There are two issues in all of this:

1) Some of the muslim countries are pathetic, backward **** holes. Having said that, some non muslim countries are backward **** holes. It's not that long ago a group of Nigerian christians massacred a group of Nigerian muslims. It works like that in backward countries. Tribal and barbaric. And to say 'there's good and bad everywhere' is the usual left-wing drivel that they come out with now and again, and it's usually followed by "we're all human beings; it's one world". Well, yeah, we are all human beings and the human beings we are aware of do live in this world. This notion is hardly plumbing the depths of human experience. Even a burrow owl has grasped the concept that we are all human beings and there's one world. To apply Cultural Relativism to the situation is akin to ignoring the hard won liberty and law and order that exists in other countries in this world.

2) It is evidently false to state that only muslims transport violence. Tony Blair is a very good example of this. He is what I call a liberal interventionist, and one driven by the same principles that drove many missionaries in the days of empire. He made a speech prior to Afghanistan, which went something along the lines of: "from the hills of Afghanistan, to the valleys of x, to the mountains of x; these people are our cause too". You can imagine what a surprise this came to many of us who quite frankly couldn't care less what they're doing in the hills of Afghanistan. Now, it can be dressed up head to toe in terms of Tony Blair's liberal intentions, but the fact remains that he had convinced himself that he was going to save them and in his mind this justified the violence that was to follow. Boil it down to its bones and killing for an idea remains killing for an idea, and the nature of the idea is pretty irrelevant when push comes to shove.

[DVV]

I'm truly delighted by "Vichy", the last desperate coinage of our so-cool-Jew-who-has-Muslim-friends.
I proved her wrong and ignorant, so I must be an anti-Semite and a nazi.
How silly and comic.

[Stephen Thomas]

Numerous verses of what is supposed to be the word of God are actually straight speeches of a political and military leader to his subjects and troops.

I really wonder how and why any educated person could deny this.

Too true, 'Vichy guy'.

But some people just like the sound of their own voice (a British saying).

[Errata]

Don't worry, I feel no need to debate with you.

I'm merely pointing out how wrong you are regarding islam, which, according to your posts, isn't fundamentally more violent than any other religion.

It simply proves you haven't read the koran, or choose, for whatever reason, to ignore what the text clearly and repeatedly says.

Numerous verses of what is supposed to be the word of God are actually straight speeches of a political and military leader to his subjects and troops.

I really wonder how and why any educated person could deny this.

Ok special guy. Whatever gets you through the day, you old Vichy.

[Ally]

OK, that post is clearly an attack on me. Based upon an uninformed and completely wrong supposition you accused me of not being "offended" "in the first 20 pages when horrific things were being said about Islam".

An attack? I asked when you and everyone else decided to leave and you consider that an attack?

I would hope that anybody who actually knows me would know I would be horrified by such vicious bigotry.

I don't doubt you were. And yet you didn't speak out in opposition to it. You announced you were deciding to leave, well after the vicious bigotry against muslims had mostly subsided and the subject had turned to Christianity and you basically said nothing one way or the other except we should all quit being rude.

You accused me of only being offended by the posts on Christianity- in other words, you accused me of religious bigotry. I consider that a deeply offensive personal attack on my moral integrity. So do many others who have read your post.

First let's be clear and actually read my words. I stated that I suspected that the MAJORITY of people who were going to leave the boards over this matter weren't doing it because of the attacks on muslims. I did not specifically single you out. But you made yourself the speaker for those who were going to leave, therefore you are the one to whom the question needed to be put. If you consider that an attack, merely questioning you about the statement you voluntarily chose to make, well then sorry but then anything in the world could be seen as an attack.

I utterly despise bigotry, racism, and hate speech. I believe that all mean and women are created equal, and we are all the children of God- ALL of us.

Excellent. Then maybe that should have been the subject of your post. But the fact is, you did not jump in and defend the muslims when people were making horrific and bigoted claims against them. That is absolutely your choice, but how in the world is anyone else supposed to know what you are thinking, especially if any question is viewed by you as an out and out attack?

Now I'm going to follow the collective advice of my friends and get away from Casebook. I've been torn about this, because so many others are staying away. I apologize to those who asked me to stay. But stress has a negative impact on my health, so I have to do the sensible thing.

And it will be a shame to see you go. But if you consider any question put to you about your motives or reasoning in a voluntarily proffered statement to be an attack, then I can understand why you would find this a very stressful place. I wish you all the best and hope your health improves.

[Archaic]

Please point out where I have attacked you. In your post, you called posters and their posts rude, irritating, vitriolic and a couple of other things I can't remember right now. I don't remember ever calling you or your message the same.

Ally, your request amazes me. Can you really not remember your own post? Here it is:

Really? Let me ask you this Archaic. When precisely did you and the other Casebookers decide to "leave"? Was it in the first 20 pages when horrific things were being said about Islam or only in the last 10 when Christianity got the same treatment?

I am going to guess for the vast majority it was the latter. In other words, it's not REALLY offensive, until the message hits a little close to home. When it's your religion on the hotseat, suddenly it's outrageous, the attacks are horrid and how offensive and worthy of leaving a board entirely. I am guessing no one was going to up and leave the board because muslims were getting called on the carpet, and yet, by and large not a single negative thing was said about christian people except that the Bible contained as many negative things as the Quran and Christians could use it to justify wrongdoing just like the muslims. Muslim people as a whole were being attacked and it's an intellectual debate. The Christian religion is being pointed to as just as flawed as Islam, and suddenly it's a dealbreaker offensive assault.

It is an interesting perspective isn't it?

OK, that post is clearly an attack on me. Based upon an uninformed and completely wrong supposition you accused me of not being "offended" "in the first 20 pages when horrific things were being said about Islam".

Not offended?? I was APPALLED, ASHAMED, AND SICKENED. I still am.

I would hope that anybody who actually knows me would know I would be horrified by such vicious bigotry.

You accused me of only being offended by the posts on Christianity- in other words, you accused me of religious bigotry. I consider that a deeply offensive personal attack on my moral integrity. So do many others who have read your post.

I utterly despise bigotry, racism, and hate speech. I believe that all mean and women are created equal, and we are all the children of God- ALL of us.

I believe God endowed us all with Free Will, Consciences, and Immortal Souls -
Even you Ally. Though you probably won't like that idea... but that's your choice. You have Free Will.

I believe it's up to each of us what we choose to do with those remarkable gifts, how we treat others, and how we live our lives. Some day each of us will be called to account, and we'll all see with new clarity all the good things we have done, all the love and kindness we have spread, and also where we have fallen short and hurt others.

When it's time for me to account for my own life, I hope I won't be sorry and ashamed. I hope others won't be sorry and ashamed either.

Now I'm going to follow the collective advice of my friends and get away from Casebook. I've been torn about this, because so many others are staying away. I apologize to those who asked me to stay. But stress has a negative impact on my health, so I have to do the sensible thing.

I sincerely appreciate all the friends I've made here.

Peace everybody.
Archaic

[DVV]

We are all aware of how fundamentally disinterested you are in productive debate. That is fine. However, if you actually read posts instead of finding a couple of words to cherry pick and pounce upon, you would see that SJ was talking about people wishing that "the lot of 'em" weren't here. Which can be done and has been done. It certainly makes things easier, it's not the right thing to do. So I was referring to the people in the anecdote I quoted. Not to anyone here. If it had been directed at someone here, I would have said so.

As for the rest of your post, despite quoting me it has nothing to do with me. So I assume that's just directed elsewhere.

Don't worry, I feel no need to debate with you.

I'm merely pointing out how wrong you are regarding islam, which, according to your posts, isn't fundamentally more violent than any other religion.

It simply proves you haven't read the koran, or choose, for whatever reason, to ignore what the text clearly and repeatedly says.

Numerous verses of what is supposed to be the word of God are actually straight speeches of a political and military leader to his subjects and troops.

I really wonder how and why any educated person could deny this.

[Errata]

Who has "condemned all Muslims" on this site ?
As far as I'm concerned, I'm merely laughing at posts that try to prove that 21st century jihadists are not inspired by their prophet, his so-called hadith, his life, his koran, or that all religions do deliver the same message.

Buddhists can make war or commit murders, I know.
But that doesn't make buddhism a fundamentally war-like religion.
Anyone having studied the koran and all relevant sources knows islam is a war-like religion, calling all the non-muslim world : "Dar al-harb".
This is an islamic specificity, like it or not.

We are all aware of how fundamentally disinterested you are in productive debate. That is fine. However, if you actually read posts instead of finding a couple of words to cherry pick and pounce upon, you would see that SJ was talking about people wishing that "the lot of 'em" weren't here. Which can be done and has been done. It certainly makes things easier, it's not the right thing to do. So I was referring to the people in the anecdote I quoted. Not to anyone here. If it had been directed at someone here, I would have said so.

As for the rest of your post, despite quoting me it has nothing to do with me. So I assume that's just directed elsewhere.

[DVV]

Who has "condemned all Muslims" on this site ?
As far as I'm concerned, I'm merely laughing at posts that try to prove that 21st century jihadists are not inspired by their prophet, his so-called hadith, his life, his koran, or that all religions do deliver the same message.

Buddhists can make war or commit murders, I know.
But that doesn't make buddhism a fundamentally war-like religion.
Anyone having studied the koran and all relevant sources knows islam is a war-like religion, calling all the non-muslim world : "Dar al-harb".
This is an islamic specificity, like it or not.

[Errata]

But on less serious note. Ive read these posts,so have many colleagues at work. Neither I nor any of them found anything to be offended about. In fact the general sentiment expressed here is similar to the average persons opinion in the real world we inhabit. They dont think in terms of the peaceful "majority" or even of Allah or Christ,or what scriptures say or dont say.Even less do they echo the sentiments of the "respectable" do-gooders. They see the issue,see the enemy,see the situation and wish the" lot of em " werent here .They havent fallen for the multicultarist society sentiment either.
Better that view and those opinions to be spoken out loud than hidden beneath layers of PC crap and allowed to fester.

I think there is often a difference between what is easy and what is right. I think that by far the easiest thing to do would be to condemn all Muslims, wish them elsewhere, demand they identify themselves in public so we know who to stay away from. History tells us that would be a Very Bad Idea. So while I don't care if people bitch about it being hard, I take a dim view of the easy solution. By all means, wish it were easier. But don't do anything to make it easier. It ends poorly.

[Smoking Joe]

A minority ?

Certainly.

Still, there are problems with football.

(See the recent events in Paris with the Paris Saint Germain. Hear the insults at every match. Listen to those who like this sport but cannot bring their children to certain stadiums.)

But here, Errata and Ally would say that all sports are the same.

So let's football don't be blamed.

And if you dare to blame it, blame figure skating as well

There was even a punch up at the recent Cheese rolling festival.
My personal opinion regarding football hooligans is......You can never tell whether a guy is a football hooligan or not until you have smashed his head in.
Here is a general knowledge question.
How can a muslim tell when he is hungry?
ANSWER his ass stops itching

But on less serious note. Ive read these posts,so have many colleagues at work. Neither I nor any of them found anything to be offended about. In fact the general sentiment expressed here is similar to the average persons opinion in the real world we inhabit. They dont think in terms of the peaceful "majority" or even of Allah or Christ,or what scriptures say or dont say.Even less do they echo the sentiments of the "respectable" do-gooders. They see the issue,see the enemy,see the situation and wish the" lot of em " werent here .They havent fallen for the multicultarist society sentiment either.
Better that view and those opinions to be spoken out loud than hidden beneath layers of PC crap and allowed to fester.

[Phil Carter]

A minority ?

Certainly.

Still, there are problems with football.

(See the recent events in Paris with the Paris Saint Germain. Hear the insults at every match. Listen to those who like this sport but cannot bring their children to certain stadiums.)

But here, Errata and Ally would say that all sports are the same.

So let's football don't be blamed.

And if you dare to blame it, blame figure skating as well

Hello David,

Indeed..

and a pretty fair paralell with hooligans is extremist religionists.

Well organised, intent on causing as much as a problem for society as possible...

and an absolute minority.

Thankfully the greater amounts of hooliganism have almost completely disappeared from british football.

nobody wants them..except the small minority themselves. And it really doesn't matter what "team" they attach themselves to either.

The great majority just want to get on and watch the football.....or if they don't like footie.. ice skating.



Have a good weekend mon ami :-)



Phil