Help request please re Packer and Hutchinson

[drstrange169]

I've just read an article dated 24 November 1888 in the Croydon Chronicle, which states the police were investigating Packer's latests claims ( about his cousin being jtr) despite not holding much stock in them. So we can definitely rule out Packer being ignored by police.

[JeffHamm]

Joshua,

Thank you very much.

Interesting that is Daily News again as with Packer.

"I told one policeman on Sunday morning what I had seen, but did not go to the police station"

Surely, the policeman would have passed this on to his superiors?

Nice to have the two primary sources for this. Just what I was looking for.

I guess it's not certain that both Packer and Hutchinson were really ignored but it's a possibility.

Martyn

Hi,

I'm not sure ignored is the right word. It appears both Packer and Hutchinson were questioned by the police. However, Packer's statements were changing and morphing in ways that seemed to suggest he was adapting based upon what was coming out in the news (I'm sure his statements and how they evolved are covered somewhere, but I can't recall which book or author looks at him most closely). As a result, I think the police eventually determined that he was simply unreliable, and given how many different versions he appeared to have made, it would be unusable in court should an arrest be made, and also it was too unstable to help even guide their investigations. I seem to recall that Hutchinson was involved with walking around the area with some police officers to see if he could spot Astrakhan-man and that went on for a week or so to no avail. So, that's not ignoring him, but perhaps deciding that his contribution had run its course and didn't produce results. It's also possible they may have lost faith in the accuracy of his report as well, though I don't think there's any direct evidence of that, it would be one possible explanation for why he seems to stop being considered a primary witness. But that could also be explained as "the lead just didn't pay out" too. I guess, to me, it sort of looks like the police did pay attention to both of these potential witnesses, but for various reasons, ended up concluding their information got them nowhere, which isn't the same as ignoring the information.

- Jeff

[mpriestnall]

And here is the link to the papers containing Hutchinson's press statement, in several papers on Nov 14th, this is from the Daily News;
https://www.casebook.org/press_repor.../18881114.html


"The following important statement was made last evening by George Hutchinson, a groom by trade, but now working as a labourer. Hutchinson said:-

On Thursday last I had been to Romford, in Essex, and I returned from there about two o'clock on Friday morning, having walked all the way. I came down

[...]

Joshua,

Thank you very much.

Interesting that is Daily News again as with Packer.

"I told one policeman on Sunday morning what I had seen, but did not go to the police station"

Surely, the policeman would have passed this on to his superiors?

Nice to have the two primary sources for this. Just what I was looking for.

I guess it's not certain that both Packer and Hutchinson were really ignored but it's a possibility.

Martyn

[Joshua Rogan]

Not sure about Hutchinson, but with regards to Packer:

According to my copy of the A-Z,
Packer, his wife, and their two lodgers were all interviewed on Sept 30th by Sgt. White, and all reported seeing nothing suspicious, and Packer had shut up his stand at 12:30 am. It was in the Evening News (4th Oct) that his claim to have never been spoken to by a police is reported, by which point he was claiming to have sold 1/2 lbs of grapes to a woman with a white flower and a stout clerky fellow in a wide awake hat. You should be able to find the news article here in the archives.

Mmm.
Interesting that the Evening New report when describing Packer's sighting says;

"The woman was middle aged, wore a dark dress and jacket, and had a white flower in her bosom."

and go on to say how this doesn't necessarily conflict with the police mortuary report that she wore a red flower. Yet when they print the actual words as Packer related his sighting, they quote him as saying;

"I saw that she was dressed in dark clothes, looked a middle aged woman, and carried a white flower in her hand."

[Joshua Rogan]

And here is the link to the papers containing Hutchinson's press statement, in several papers on Nov 14th, this is from the Daily News;
https://www.casebook.org/press_repor.../18881114.html


"The following important statement was made last evening by George Hutchinson, a groom by trade, but now working as a labourer. Hutchinson said:-

On Thursday last I had been to Romford, in Essex, and I returned from there about two o'clock on Friday morning, having walked all the way. I came down Whitechapel road into Commercial street. As I passed Thrawl street I passed a man standing at the corner of the street, and as I went towards Flower and Dean street I met the woman Kelly, whom I knew very well, having been in her company a number of times. She said, "Mr. Hutchinson, can you lend me sixpence?" I said, "I cannot, as I am spent out going down to Romford." She then walked on towards Thrawl street, saying, "I must go and look for some money." The man who was standing at the corner of Thrawl street then came towards her and put his hand on her shoulder, and said something to her which I did not hear, and they both burst out laughing. He put his hand again on her shoulder and they both walked slowly towards me. I walked on to the corner of Fashion street, near the public house. As they came by me his arm was still on her shoulder. He had a soft felt hat on, and this was drawn down somewhat over his eyes. I put down my head to look him in the face, and he turned and looked at me very sternly, and they walked across the road to Dorset street. I followed them across and stood at the corner of Dorset street. They stood at the corner of Miller's court for about three minutes. Kelly spoke to the man in a loud voice, saying, "I have lost my handkerchief." He pulled a red handkerchief out of his pocket, and gave it to Kelly, and they both went up the court together. I went to look up the court to see if I could see them, but could not. I stood there for three quarters of an hour to see if they came down again, but they did not, and so I went away. My suspicions were aroused by seeing a man so well dressed, but I had no suspicion that he was the murderer. The man was about 5ft 8in in height and 34 or 35 years of age, with dark complexion and dark moustache turned up at the ends. He was wearing a long dark coat trimmed with astrachan, a white collar with black necktie, in which was affixed a horseshow pin. He wore a pair of dark "spats" with light buttons over button boots, and displayed from his waistcoat a massive gold chain. His watch chain had a big seal with a red stone hanging from it. He had a heavy moustache, curled up, and dark eyes and bushy eyebrows. He had no side whiskers, and his chin was clean shaven. He looked like a foreigner. I went up the court and stayed there a couple of minutes, but did not see any light in the house or hear any noise. I was out last night until three o'clock looking for him. I could swear to the man anywhere. I told one policeman on Sunday morning what I had seen, but did not go to the police station. I told one of the lodgers here about it yesterday, and he advised me to go to the police station, which I did last night. The man I saw did not look as though he would attack another one. He carried a small parcel in his hand, about eight inches long, and it had a strap round it. He had it tightly grasped in his left hand. It looked as though it was covered with dark American cloth. He carried in his right hand, which he laid upon the woman's shoulder, a pair of brown kid gloves. One thing I noticed, and that was that he walked very softly. I believe that he lives in the neighbourhood, and I fancied that I saw him in Petticoat lane on Sunday morning, but I was not certain. I went down to the Shoreditch mortuary today and recognised the body as being that of the woman Kelly, whom I saw at two o'clock on Friday morning. Kelly did not seem to me to be drunk, but was a bit "spreeish." I was quite sober, not having had anything to drink all day. After I left the court I walked about all night, as the place where I usually sleep was closed. I came in as soon as it opened in the morning. I am able to fix the time, as it was between ten and five minutes to two o'clock as I came by Whitechapel Church. When I left the corner of Miller's court the clock struck three o'clock. One policeman went by the Commercial street end of Dorset street while I was standing there, but not one came down Dorset street. I saw one man go into a lodging house in Dorset street, but no one else. I have been looking for the man all day."

[mpriestnall]

Here's a link to it, found under the press reports section of the boards: https://www.casebook.org/press_repor.../18881004.html

Scroll down a bit and you'll find quite a bit.

- Jeff

Thanks Jeff and everyone else for your help. Much appreciated.

Martyn

[JeffHamm]

Thanks for your reply. The Evening News (4th Oct) must be the one I was thinking of. I'll have a look for it then on here. I currently have a FMP subscription but they don't seem to have any Evening News repoorts

Martyn

Here's a link to it, found under the press reports section of the boards: https://www.casebook.org/press_repor.../18881004.html

Scroll down a bit and you'll find quite a bit.

- Jeff

[mpriestnall]

So we have two potentially high value witnesses both claiming independently they were ignored. Maybe!

[mpriestnall]

...or are you thinking about Reg Hutchinsons remark that nothing came from his father’ s approaching the police?

Fish, thanks for your reply. I wasn't thinking of that but that's useful to know. It mirrors Hutchinson words in the Evening News (4th Oct).

[mpriestnall]

Are you perhaps thinking of Hutchinson's press statement, which contains the line;

"I told one policeman on Sunday morning what I had seen, but did not go to the police station"

Which leaves it open as to whether the policeman he talked to simply ignored his tale or told him to tell the police at the station, which he didn't do until a fellow lodger advised him to do the same.

Thanks for your reply. Again that's what I must be "remembering".

Does anyone know which press report though?

"I told one policeman on Sunday morning what I had seen, but did not go to the police station"

Did the policeman in question pass the info up the chain to someone who sat on it? See my theory post #6 as to why this may have happened.

Martyn

[mpriestnall]

Not sure about Hutchinson, but with regards to Packer:

According to my copy of the A-Z,
Packer, his wife, and their two lodgers were all interviewed on Sept 30th by Sgt. White, and all reported seeing nothing suspicious, and Packer had shut up his stand at 12:30 am. It was in the Evening News (4th Oct) that his claim to have never been spoken to by a police is reported, by which point he was claiming to have sold 1/2 lbs of grapes to a woman with a white flower and a stout clerky fellow in a wide awake hat. You should be able to find the news article here in the archives.

- Jeff

Thanks for your reply. The Evening News (4th Oct) must be the one I was thinking of. I'll have a look for it then on here. I currently have a FMP subscription but they don't seem to have any Evening News repoorts

Martyn

[mpriestnall]

Abberline went on record as believing Hutchinson to be true. Packer initially was subject to police interest but his later sightings weren't treated seriously by the police, as far as we know.

Thanks for your reply.

There seems to be two schools of thought in Ripperology on MP's reliability. I get the impression the consensus is that MP is to be considered unreliable.

I'm pretty sure in his book "Ripper Confidential", Tom Wescott concludes MP's is not reliable, for example

But both authors Bruce Robinson and Colin Kendell in his book* claim the police deliberately altered MP's witness timings.

I'm sitting on the fence on this issue for now. But my theory is that JTR was arrested post the double-event and given a free pass and this is
maybe the reason why the police may have wanted to devalue MP as a witness, so the two descriptions (MP's and from the arrest) were not tied together.

Martyn

*Kendell's book Jack the RIpper: The Theories & Facts of the Whitechapel Murders

[Fisherman]

...or are you thinking about Reg Hutchinsons remark that nothing came from his father’ s approaching the police?

[Joshua Rogan]

Are you perhaps thinking of Hutchinson's press statement, which contains the line;

"I told one policeman on Sunday morning what I had seen, but did not go to the police station"

Which leaves it open as to whether the policeman he talked to simply ignored his tale or told him to tell the police at the station, which he didn't do until a fellow lodger advised him to do the same.

[JeffHamm]

I thought (possibly dreamed) that both Packer and Hutchinson claimed to have been ignored by the Police.

I am searching for evidence of this in the press reports.

Can anyone help with this please?

Thanks for any help given,

Martyn

Not sure about Hutchinson, but with regards to Packer:

According to my copy of the A-Z,
Packer, his wife, and their two lodgers were all interviewed on Sept 30th by Sgt. White, and all reported seeing nothing suspicious, and Packer had shut up his stand at 12:30 am. It was in the Evening News (4th Oct) that his claim to have never been spoken to by a police is reported, by which point he was claiming to have sold 1/2 lbs of grapes to a woman with a white flower and a stout clerky fellow in a wide awake hat. You should be able to find the news article here in the archives.

- Jeff