Psychic mediums Sally Morgan and Lisa Wiliams

[DirectorDave]

Dave -- your assumptions of "folk like me" are completely wrong. As I've said throughout this thread, right from #1 I am a sceptic, a cynic, a woman of science who demands proof.

(At nine years old I was slapped round the face for saying I didn'believeve in god.)

Did not believe in god....fair play but at 9 did you still believe in Santa?

I did NOT say that I cannot believe that fakers would "go this far". I said that it's hard to believe that, if they employ accomplices in every town they perform in, that at least ONE of them doesn't blab. That is a totally different thing.You'ree

Youre correct you did not say it but the fact you believe there are only 2 possible explanations when indeed there are hundreds of possible explanations suggest that you either lack imagination or other explanations are not worth considering.

"Stoogies" in the audience is not the only form of accomplace....what about people who scour facebook for people saying they are going to see Sally, checking the names of dead parents, grandparents or children, looking through bins for receipts of holidays, prescriptions or pregnancy tests?

Let me guess....they wouldn't go that far right?

The only difference between me and those who dismiss them out of hand is that I am prepared to listen, to watch, to hear them, to study them, to give them a chance to prove it all to me.

So far, I don't feel convinced, BUT I have seen things that I cannot explain logically, and I feel that I need to explain to my own satisfaction just how they manage to give so many accurate readings to so many people.

What about all the inaccurate stuff? Do you hear about that?

Indeed. We are less likely to believe blindly, we are all so sceptical these days. We take a lot of convincing.

Really...Humanity seems as gullible as ever, perhaps more so...but even if they wern't and we were as you say "all so sceptical" it is totally negated by how easy it is to obtain personal information on people therse days.

They do go that far to con you......thats what they have relied upon for centuries.

[Sally]

Accomplices

Has anybody considered how hard it would actually be to operate a system using accomplices?

I'm quite happy to accept it as a possibility if somebody explains to me how it would work.

[HelenaWojtczak]

You see "Sally" and the rest are made for folk like you.....people who believe that the conman or con womanan would not "go this far" to deceive you.....thats what they rely apon.

Dave -- your assumptions of "folk like me" are completely wrong. As I've said throughout this thread, right from #1 I am a sceptic, a cynic, a woman of science who demands proof.

(At nine years old I was slapped round the face for saying I didn't belive in god.)

I did NOT say that I cannot believe that fakers would "go this far". I said that it's hard to believe that, if they employ accomplices in every town they perform in, that at least ONE of them doesn't blab. That is a totally different thing.

The only difference between me and those who dismiss them out of hand is that I am prepared to listen, to watch, to hear them, to study them, to give them a chance to prove it all to me.

So far, I don't feel convinced, BUT I have seen things that I cannot explain logically, and I feel that I need to explain to my own satisfaction just how they manage to give so many accurate readings to so many people.

Helena

[HelenaWojtczak]

an alternative explanation if you discount the accomplices theory is that they are reading the thoughts of the living.

Ah yes, you are right, I missed that third possibility.

Personally, I think assuming that they're 'fakes' is the easy way out...
I'd have thought it would be very hard to get away with it today...

Indeed. We are less likely to believe blindly, we are all so sceptical these days. We take a lot of convincing.

Helena

[DirectorDave]

What I am trying to say is, it is clear that there are only two possible explanations for these accurate readings. Either all of the people concerned are accomplices, or these women really are getting supernatural messages.

You see "Sally" and the rest are made for folk like you.....people who believe that the conman or con woman would not "go this far" to deceive you.....thats what they rely apon,.

Try thinking of a third possible explanation....I'll give you a couple of days....if you can't I will tell you my own theory.....although once you hear it the words "They wouldn't go that far....would they?" would still be knockin round your noggin.

[Sally]

Hi Helena

What I am trying to say is, it is clear that there are only two possible explanations for these accurate readings. Either all of the people concerned are accomplices, or these women really are getting supernatural messages.

That's true - but even if they are getting supernatural messages, it doesn't necessarily have to be from the dead - an alternative explanation if you discount the accomplices theory is that they are reading the thoughts of the living.

Perhaps they're mind readers?

Personally, I think assuming that they're 'fakes' is the easy way out of what is certainly a mystery - accomplices are the obvious solution; and as such I'd have thought it would be very hard to get away with it today - there exists a long history of misdemenour in this field, and audiences are a lot more sophisticated than they used to be when psychic mediumship was new.

Who knows what the answer is? But there seem to me to be many possibilities.

[HelenaWojtczak]

I'm enjoying all these intelligent replies...

DirectorDave, Sleekviper

The thing is, it's not all hit and miss. I've watched many of both Williams's and Morgan's public and private readings and they do get a LOT of things correct, particularly names, not just one but four or five connected with the same person. Morgan knew that a woman was four weeks pregnant, which was till then a secret. In private readings Williams knew all about a woman's dead husband, how and where he died etc.

What I am trying to say is, it is clear that there are only two possible explanations for these accurate readings. Either all of the people concerned are accomplices, or these women really are getting supernatural messages.

Is it feasible that these mediums can have so many accomplices? Four or five in each theatre (and they have to be different people each time, because it's being recorded and Youtube viewers would recognise them if they used the same accomplices again). Plus, in the private readings, ALL of the people would have to be in league with the mediums, and in some cases they are famous (the two top models and Natalie Imbruglia, for example).

Could Lisa Williams and Sally Morgan possibly be paying SO MANY people to be accomplices, and pay them enough to buy their silence forever? Surely this would wipe out any potential profit? Surely people employed as stoodges for just one theatre performance aren't paid much and would make far more from then selling their story to the press? And yet nobody has.

Having said all that, I still can't believe that anyone can get messages from the dead.

Magpie

I don't know. I never heard of these women till yesterday.

Brummie
Yes, I saw those links before. Apparently according to another video, the men in the theatre were theatre technical staff, nothing to do with Morgan.

But if they are fakes how come their accomplices and stooges aren't exposing them?


Helena

[Magpie]

Wasn't there an accusation against Morgan a couple of years ago of using hot reading? I seem to remember that somewhere.

[DirectorDave]

"Sally" came to my town a couple of times....sold out a 1000 capacity venue each time.

Every single one of them are charlatans exploiting vunerable people....but in truth they are no worse or better than evey Preist, Shamen, Rabbi or Imam on the planet.

[Robert]

I have an open mind. There are things humans can do which science can't explain, though it's always assumed that a "scientific" explanation will one day appear. For instance, there are people who are fast calculators, and can multiply, say, 4163 by 92 109 virtually instantly. So far as I can recall, such folk aren't aware of doing a calculation in the same way that ordinary people are, e.g. they don't have a mental piece of paper with the two numbers written down and do it step by step. They just do it. If they mostly get the right answer, they're accepted as genuine. So if a "psychic" were to consistently give me correct info about someone I knew, and if it was hard-to-guess info, I think I'd be convinced. The nuts and bolts of how the psychic did it could be debated later. The question would be, was the psychic right?

[sleekviper]

Besides not understanding how the right spirits, out of the billions that have died, are able to locate the exact moment of a reading and not be accurate, rather lost as to why someone that is suppose to have the gift does not connect with a live person after they die. That would seem to me to be HD Ghostvision to the maximum. Make a ton off where Jimmy hoffa is buried, Amelia Earhart, and this ripper crime, and give people peace of mind over missing family, and correct killers put in prison while the innocent set free.

[brummie]

There are a lot of things in this world that I don't claim to understand, so i hesitate to dismiss anything completely out of hand.In the case of talking with dead people however it has to be said there is no rational scientific reason to believe that such a thing is possible and that there is some fprm of existence after death.Imagine if there were, the billions of people who have died throughout the history of the world and yet psychics are able to home in on indidual relatives,(even before the subject of whether animals too continue after death or its just humans).
None of the 'psychics' or mediums I have seen have shown me anything to make me think they were genuine, indeed none has done anything magicians and mind readers haven't been doing for years. I have seen some footage on You tube of Sally Morgan and granted she is very professional in the show she puts on nothing has convinced me she is genuine indeed there is also evidence on YouTube to the contrary from people who claim to have been at her shows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiQF-NR6h8M&feature=related

story from someone at a show in Ireland

And Paul zenon describes how it could be done

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQU4ohwvYjY&feature=relmfu

Ultimately I guess its like religion , you either believe or you don't, and evidence either way is unlikely to change most opinions.

[HelenaWojtczak]

I'll have a look at your link out of interest.

Loads of videos on Youtube.

It was the sort of thing that went " I have John sitting next to me. Does anyone here know a John ? Everybody applaud!"

Yes indeed. There is "fishing" like that and there is "cold reading".

But, having watched these women on video, is there any possibility whatsoever that anyone on earth can actually contact the dead?

Helena

[Rubyretro]

So I am wondering what others on here think about these women. As you are all engaged with unravelling the JtR mystery, what do you think about people who claim to contact the dead?

I don't believe it at all. I don't know these women, but I'll have a look at your link out of interest.

My Mother went through a phase of going to these sort of shows, when I was a teenager, and dragged me along to a couple of them with her. I was far from convinced.

It was the sort of thing that went " I have John sitting next to me. Does anyone here know a John ? somebody's Father perhaps ? Or an uncle ? He's telling me that he died of a long illness...but he's feeling much better now...
You at the back ! He's telling me it's you !..."

(woman breaks off from looking excited and gabbling to the person that she came with ).

Deathly hush. " I know a John. He was my brother"

" That's it. John is nodding his head. He's so happy that you came here tonight -he was willing you to come. He said that you often visited him in hospital"

(woman looks deathly pale)

"I visited him -yes, that's correct".

"He suffered such a lot from his illness, but he says that you often came to see him with a little present and made him feel so much better..."

"I'm stunned. You're absolutely correct...I did sometimes bring him a gift.
His accident was a terrible thing".

" Yes. John is whispering something to me...wait...He is telling me that it was indeed the accident which led to him being so ill...But he is so happy that you know it and bothered to come here tonight ! -John is fading away very quickly..Everybody applaud ! What a great sister ! John is telling me that you are wonderful ! Goodnight."

[HelenaWojtczak]

While interested in people who claim to have paranormal powers, I am also a woman of science who demands proof.

I've only just stumbled across these ladies and have been watching their stage shows and private "readings" on Youtube.

My conclusion is... well, inconclusive. There are a lot of correct "hits" in the public demonstrations... but they make mistakes too. There are a lot of correct hits with the private consultations, but there is no way of proving that they aren't set up or faked.

So I am wondering what others on here think about these women. As you are all engaged with unravelling the JtR mystery, what do you think about people who claim to contact the dead?

Helena