Pastor Urges Parents to "Man Up" and Punch Effeminate Children

[Chris Scott]

My profound apologies Dr H
I looked back and you are absolutely right - I picked up the comment from a quote from mariab which you had included in one of your posts. I will be more observant in future:-)
Apologies again
Chris S

[DrHopper]

"There are even historians who have argued that Jesus and his disciples – you know what. At that time it wouldn't have been unusual, Tom. The Romans truly did it. A lot!"

Hi Dr H
I really cannot agree with you on that one.
I am not aware of a bona fide "historian" who has suggested that Jesus and/or his disciples were homosexual. It has certainly been suggested in various books but there are many people who promote sensational theories about the Bible and its characters who are not what I would call "historians."
"At that time it wouldn't have been unusual" - in some sections of ancient society, maybe. But I would suggest that among Jews who observed the Torah it would have been not only unusual but forbidden.
"The Romans truly did it" - again that has to be qualified. The Romans' attitude to male homosexuality was, like much else in the Roman world, adopted and adapted from ancient Greece. Many Romans - most notably some of their emperors, such as Nero and Hadrian - were hellenophiles. While male homosexuality was certainly tolerated - especially in the upper sections of society - it was viewed largely as a sort of cultural affectation and was not approved of if it became exclusive. As in Ancient Greece, a man may have had male lovers, but he was still expected to do his duty to the state by marrying and producing offspring. It is certainly the case that an emperor whose homosexual behaviour became exclusive or what was deemed to be excessive was putting himself in harm's way by such conduct. The flamboyant, effeminate conduct of the young emperor Elagabalus led to his downfall and death.
In the Roman world there was also the class aspect as well. Elalgabalus was partly condemned because the man he took as his "husband" was not patrician born but was a lowly charioteer.

Hi Chris
Alas, I stand not guilty of the quote you give! Weren't me wot said it guv!
I think the person you need to address is 'mariab'
Actually I agree with in every way about your statements, and the way in which Roman homosexuality is viewed.

[Chris Scott]

"There are even historians who have argued that Jesus and his disciples – you know what. At that time it wouldn't have been unusual, Tom. The Romans truly did it. A lot!"

Hi Dr H
I really cannot agree with you on that one.
I am not aware of a bona fide "historian" who has suggested that Jesus and/or his disciples were homosexual. It has certainly been suggested in various books but there are many people who promote sensational theories about the Bible and its characters who are not what I would call "historians."
"At that time it wouldn't have been unusual" - in some sections of ancient society, maybe. But I would suggest that among Jews who observed the Torah it would have been not only unusual but forbidden.
"The Romans truly did it" - again that has to be qualified. The Romans' attitude to male homosexuality was, like much else in the Roman world, adopted and adapted from ancient Greece. Many Romans - most notably some of their emperors, such as Nero and Hadrian - were hellenophiles. While male homosexuality was certainly tolerated - especially in the upper sections of society - it was viewed largely as a sort of cultural affectation and was not approved of if it became exclusive. As in Ancient Greece, a man may have had male lovers, but he was still expected to do his duty to the state by marrying and producing offspring. It is certainly the case that an emperor whose homosexual behaviour became exclusive or what was deemed to be excessive was putting himself in harm's way by such conduct. The flamboyant, effeminate conduct of the young emperor Elagabalus led to his downfall and death.
In the Roman world there was also the class aspect as well. Elalgabalus was partly condemned because the man he took as his "husband" was not patrician born but was a lowly charioteer.

[Errata]

My grandfather was considered effeminate because he liked to cook. Never mind that he once sunk a German u-boat with his own helicopter.

[Tom_Wescott]

Oh whatever Ally. I think it just unnerves you that you agree with me on 90% of the stuff I say.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Walk? Pshaw that's for amateurs. You should try dancing all night. That's when you separate the women from the girls.

OK, then I'm a girl. (Or a slob. Mostly wearing Nikes everywhere, from fine restaurants to dates to parties to walking in deep snow. Though I've been known to walk on snow on flip flops or even barefoot. Snowboarders do this. Since I started snowboarding, I stopped wearing boots or coats. Lol.)

[Ally]

And good for you for wearing heels - I tried it once... how in God's name can you walk in them? I nearly died!

Walk? Pshaw that's for amateurs. You should try dancing all night. That's when you separate the women from the girls.

Ally,

Okay, you've completely lost the plot with your blasphemy. There's never any call for that.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

And there's never any call for half the bigoted crap that rolls from your warped little noggin but that doesn't seem to stop you from sharing your blasphemy with the masses, now does it?

[mariab]

Even nicer, Tom. And all women are nurses. Lol.

Though I wouldn't have minded a summer home in Hossegor or Hawaii.

Highjack: Did you see what I sent you about where the entrance to Dutfield's Yard is as of today? It's on the street now, not on the pavement.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Maria. I meant REAL doctor. Like white coats and summer homes, etc.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

"Is there a doctor in the house?!“

Hi Dr. Hopper. You talk like a woman, but that's impossible if you're a doctor, cuz all docs are men. Unless you're not a real doctor? Hmmmm.

Sweet. This while you know too well I got a Dr.s title.

Tom, just look at the stuff I sent you on Berner Street already, I wanna go to sleep. I'm beat from playing Schwartz and Pipeman all evening.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Dr. Hopper. You talk like a woman, but that's impossible if you're a doctor, cuz all docs are men. Unless you're not a real doctor? Hmmmm.

Ally,

Okay, you've completely lost the plot with your blasphemy. There's never any call for that.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Mariab - just want to point out something - Homosexuality in the Classical world is a really complicated issue. {...} Whatever the time though, homosexuality was never considered 'normal' as such {...} (I'm a classical archaeologist BTW).

Thanks for the input. I've already corrected myself and referred to antique male bisexuality having been considered as the norm.

I skateboard and surf

No way! A casebooker sharing my personal interests?!! I assume the skateboarding refers to a longboard skateboard, for cruisin'? And might I inquire what kind of surfboards you own? (No need to answer this if you don't feel like, though.)

I own a number of pink shirts

French and Italian professional men wear those all the time, it's a situational tradition.

And good for you for wearing heels - I tried it once...how in God's name can you walk in them? I nearly died!

Like Ally, I can walk and even run the stairs (up is super easy, down a bit trickier) in high heels, but I hardly ever wear such shoes. Feel at best in my Nikes or barefoot (and I'm talking, barefoot outdoors, lol.). I really appreciate being able to walk noiselessly (silent boots, anyone? lol), and it's completely possible to do that in high heels too. CAN'T stand hearing women go all "clack clack clack" when walking around. (This isn't referring to Rob Clack, by the way.)

Certainly, the male aspect will have a bearing, but there is none of the pressure to increase the number of girls one sleeps with as a mark of your masculinity that comes with the heterosexual world, which accounts for a lot of the sex that straight men have. Instead, there is an equal, but different, pressure - to have lots of partners - in the gay world.
I have a friend who has been out only a few years (he's 39... we all suspected, but he only recently understood his sexuality), and he says it's really depressing - he wants a partner, a boyfriend, or whatever, but something monogamous, but it is so difficult as all the expectation is to be very promiscuous. He says he had no problem with at first - lots of sex, hurrah! - but now he wants something a bit more serious or settled - and its very difficult when one partner is saying things like "oh, I hope you don't mind, I had sex with so-and-so last night" or "let's have a foursome with..." So social pressure combined with a male driver to have lots of sex, in a society that celebrates promiscuity - not necessarily a good thing.

In my experience, gay promiscuity is a thing of the past (specifically the '80s). In my circle of gay friends (in Germany) I see them seeking for a partner, they even keep talking about "not wanting to settle".

[DrHopper]

That isn't a "gay" quality as much as it is a male quality. The presence of a female in a relationship is usually the rate limiting factor regarding the quantity of sex or the number of partners. If both participants are male, fewer limits are imposed.

But who cares, really. As long as they play it safe, I'm not concerned what others are doing in bed.

Actually, I'm not certain that it's not a bit of both. Certainly, the male aspect will have a bearing, but there is none of the pressure to increase the number of girls one sleeps with as a mark of your masculinity that comes with the heterosexual world, which accounts for a lot of the sex that straight men have. Instead, there is an equal, but different, pressure - to have lots of partners - in the gay world.
I have a friend who has been out only a few years (he's 39... we all suspected, but he only recently understood his sexuality), and he says it's really depressing - he wants a partner, a boyfriend, or whatever, but something monogamous, but it is so difficult as all the expectation is to be very promiscuous. He says he had no problem with at first - lots of sex, hurrah! - but now he wants something a bit more serious or settled - and its very difficult when one partner is saying things like "oh, I hope you don't mind, I had sex with so-and-so last night" or "let's have a foursome with..." So social pressure combined with a male driver to have lots of sex, in a society that celebrates promiscuity - not necessarily a good thing.

[DrummondStreet]

I would say it's pretty well known there's far, far more promiscuity in the gay lifestyle, as I'm sure most any gay would tell you.

That isn't a "gay" quality as much as it is a male quality. The presence of a female in a relationship is usually the rate limiting factor regarding the quantity of sex or the number of partners. If both participants are male, fewer limits are imposed.

But who cares, really. As long as they play it safe, I'm not concerned what others are doing in bed.

[Robert]

Well, I like the Quentin Crisp types.