France Bans Ketchup in School Cafeterias

[Robert]

Errata, if you are against discipline and against physical force, then I take it you are against the police, against prisons, against armies, and courts, in fact against most of what preserves civilization.

I have heard people say "It's illegal to smack an adult, so why should it be legal to smack a child?" But by the same tolen, it's illegal to send an adult to his room and keep him there, so why should it be legal to do it to a child? It's illegal to take a packet of sweets out of an adult's hands, in the hope that he'll eat his dinner - so why should it be legal to do it to a child? Sooner or later, common sense must intervene - even for liberals.

Question : a 14-year-old comes up to you in the street and punches you in the face. What do you do?

[Errata]

Any adult who attempted to use corporal punishment on me very quickly learned what a terrible idea that was. I have absolutely no respect for an adult who cannot deal with a child without hitting them. Fear does not equal discipline.

I mean hell, a man can beat the crap out of his wife until she does everything he says without question or comment... and vice versa I suppose. And if all you are concerned with is yourself, and with results, I'm sure it seems perfectly reasonable. But it doesn't make you much a human does it?

When I had to switch to public school, I didn't know that corporal punishment was allowed. Neither did my parents. I had an assistant principal lay hands on me once for "violating the phone policy" (they saw me calling 911 for a girl who was miscarrying in the bathroom). I beat the hell out of that man. Put him in the hospital. He tried to file assault charges, but it was quickly explained to him that any retaliation for my very understandable reaction to getting struck by an adult was going to end in his ruin. And I made merciless fun of that man until my last day of school. I would go into his office just to belittle his manhood and his qualities as an educator, husband and human. Put up posters all over the neighborhood with his picture and the words "likes to put his hands on young girls". And he was impotent, because I could stand up in a court of law and tell everyone how he put his hands on me. That shmuck was my hobby. And he deserved it.

He thought he had the right to strike me because the law said it was an acceptable form of punishment. He was mistaken. The law cannot give him the right to hit me anymore than it can give him the right to have sex with me or sell me on an auction block. He learned that lesson intimately, I assure you. He thought he could get away with it because I was young, and surely would be cowed by his authority. I fought back. Hard. And then I made him my b!tch for sport. The second he hit me, he lost all of his power. He gave it all to me to use against him. And he had to suffer endless humiliation at the hands of a 15 year old girl, who generally was a better person than that, but had a very very very bad few years and was in no mood.

People who hit kids, hit kids because either they like it, or they are failures as humans. Same as people who hit animals or beat their wives or gang up on a gay kid and beat him to death. Did I get spanked by my parents as a kid? A couple of times. When they lost their temper. That's not discipline. That's punishment. They decided to physically hurt me because of how they felt, not because of what I did. And they felt terrible about it. And I know there are kids who were hit and are fine. I'm marrying one. My cat is fine, and she was doused in gasoline and lit on fire by some drunk frat boys. That doesn't make it okay.

And quite frankly, if you have to hit someone to get respect, you are not worthy of respect.

[Adam Went]

Hey all,

Robert makes an interesting point about corporal punishment I think, it's a pretty controversial subject but the teachers should have some authority higher than just the meek words they are allowed to use these days.

As well as that, teachers, while we aren't questioning the difficulty of their job at times, know what they are getting themselves into. Every one of them has been through the education system already and seen how it works first hand, every one of them knows that they will have to deal with difficult students, difficult parents, challenging circumstances and work for not the greatest pay in the world. So if they still choose to go ahead and pick it as a career then you have to accept that, IMO - as with any job, you must take the good with the bad and if all you see is bad then it's time for a career change.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Robert]

I agree that teachers have a very stressful job, and that they are having to pay for society's problems. But I can't help thinking that they have brought some of this on themselves. They were in the forefront of the campaign to abolish corporal punishment. So now they have kids whom they can't discipline, and they have to call the police.

I was caned at school and no, I didn't vow revenge on society. Even in our primary school (age 5 to 11) the teachers would sometimes give us a slap on the leg or the arm (boys wore short trousers in those days and girls wore skirts). Maybe I'm eccentric but it didn't make me twisted and bitter. What made me bitter was having to learn to bloody dance.

[Abby Normal]

As someone with first hand experience i have to say that most of the teachers here in the US are freaken saints!!!! (at least the ones I have been around and heard about). The nonsense they have to put up with including spoiled, indignant kids (not to mention the violent ones), apathetic parents, do-nothing beaurocratic adminstrators/principals and the assinine policies that come down from the school boards whose decisions are made by people who have PHDs in Logic but never spent a day in a classroom in their lives is unbeleivable! Plus all this while working for peanuts.

Cut them some slack and give a hug next time you meet one.

[John Bennett]

John:

A fantastic post, and thank for you your rather thought provoking and at times disturbing insights into your time as a teacher.

Cheers Adam. It was quite therapeutic!

Nobody in their right mind would deny that teaching can be a challenging job at times - however, the remarks which led to this discussion in the first place were an allusion to basic teaching mistakes.

Fair enough, though I was responding to the posts regarding teachers' holidays.

But true, teachers make mistakes as everybody does and it's a profession where mistakes can have detrimental effects in the long term. Same goes for a lot of jobs. I have certainly encountered teachers who shouldn't be doing it for one reason or another.

Who remembers the teacher at their school who couldn't manage the behaviour of their class, where nothing got done and even the good kids played up? There was one at my school who was just that - the other staff called him 'Captain Chaos'. Strangely, he was there when I started at the school in the 1970s and was STILL there when I joined the staff for a year as a technician in the mid-1990s. How he survived so long is beyond me.

[Adam Went]

John:

A fantastic post, and thank for you your rather thought provoking and at times disturbing insights into your time as a teacher.

Let me say first of all that it really wasn't that long ago that I was in school myself, so I am well and truly aware of the manner in which the modern day school curriculum works, how much pressure is placed on students and teachers alike, etc etc etc.

Nobody in their right mind would deny that teaching can be a challenging job at times - however, the remarks which led to this discussion in the first place were an allusion to basic teaching mistakes.

That is, teachers educating students incorrectly, often on the simplest of subjects like the plural of a word, or geography.

So I think it's important to keep it in that context because as far as I can see nobody is denying that teachers have to deal with some pretty difficult and controversial situations. But then so does everybody.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Limehouse]

To John, Chris and Ally - bravo!

[Ally]

And to add to that list, the idiotic parents who spout nonsense like "you guys have two months of vacation what do you have to complain about". No one ever seems to take into consideration that teaching licenses expire and almost every teacher I knew was using those summer vacations to take the courses and trainings that were required to maintain their licenses.

And those that weren't in school were getting second jobs because teaching pays like crap, and of course, you don't get paid for those two months.

[chrisjd]

Amen to that, John!
Christian

[John Bennett]

For the record, I was a secondary school teacher for over 10 years. Most of the time, the teaching day went according to plan (just), but anybody who thinks that teaching is just about standing in front of a bunch of kids, keeping them on task and drip feeding knowledge to them in a way that is engaging and inspirational needs to think again (if only it were that easy). There are SOOOOOO many dynamics. Add to that the paperwork and demands of school policy, meetings, extra-curricular activities....

In that time I have taught thousands of young people from the age of 11 to 19, watched them grow up, seen them change mentally and physically -I've seen success and failure on a grand scale. I have seen students who had been previously 'written off' achieve great things - they turned themselves around by being inspired by their teachers and by a drive to change themselves. I've used every trick in the book to ensure that I can teach and they can learn, as I'm sure every other teacher has.

Then again, I have shared classrooms with students who were muggers, shoplifters and drug dealers. Some students went on to become rapists, kidnappers and on more than one occasion, murderers. I've been sworn at, attacked, threatened with stabbing and shooting and confiscated two guns in my teaching career. I've had students who carry knives.

I've had to mentor those with difficulties, even visited their homes on behalf of the school, seen how they live and had to familiarise myself with their social services case-files (which in some cases are awful enough to make one cry or throw up). I've even seen one of my students begging at Russell Square Tube station when they should have been on work experience. I've had parents crying down the phone in desperation or screaming in anger.

I've sat in exclusion tribunals, been cross-examined by a solicitor (after being attacked by a student), given evidence to the police and sat with a student in the cells because their parents were unavailable.

OK, that's enough, and I have to say I taught in a tough area and it wasn't like that every day.

But one thing is evident, is that a lot of schools have to deal with issues that begin outside the school gates. Sometimes, these can be frightening in their magnitude and intensity - sometimes it's just a petty squabble that gets silly and disrupts a lesson for 10 minutes.

Some teachers can cope with this intensity, others can't and yes, I will say that there are some teachers who are not up to the job. I got out out when the changes became so great, I realised that this vocation was not what it was when I started. Some don't.

And finally - if teachers don't need the long holidays, then you can bet your life the kids do. They are tested to the hilt, assessed and reassessed and have to know their own levels of assessment and the pressure is much more than it was in my day.

If you've ever tried to teach after two eight week terms, you'll know how frazzled these students become. We're dealing constantly with human beings and LOTS of them. Understanding that dynamic and working with it (and surviving it) makes teaching more than just an overpaid job with long holidays.

[Adam Went]

Limehouse:

Then if that's the case, the student should remember it and relay it when they are involved in professional adult careers, so that it can perhaps help eradicate the view which you seem to believe the majority of the public hold in regards to teachers.

I can only state again that the vast majority of teachers are really good at what they do - I went to what would be considered a very small rural school in comparison to most and 90% of the teachers were fine, it's just a handful of bad ones that stir the pot sometimes because the bad ones are really bad.

It's as much about gaining a rapport with your class as anything else IMO - brute force doesn't work with teenagers.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Robert]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgJ5AcsXp4M

[Errata]

some of the most important things I've ever learned I got from teachers. My government teacher taught us to get involved in government, because it irritates politicians and might actually do some good. But he said that all politics are a Scooby Doo cartoon, and US citizens have to jump into the mystery machine and expose the seemingly kind and caring janitor as the monster he really is.

Gotta love any Scooby Doo metaphor for the duties of a citizen.

[Limehouse]

Yes Adam, it is indeed rewarding - and often small things are achieved that go unnoticed by the outside world but are so important to the student.