Hitler, the Nazis and World War Two etc etc

[Errata]

And avoid watching any Pearl Harbour related films which just happen to feature Ben Affleck.

Cheers,
Adam.

Preach.

[Adam Went]

And avoid watching any Pearl Harbour related films which just happen to feature Ben Affleck.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Mayerling]

ahh but chilean sea bass is a non sustainable food fish, and so we shouldn't eat them anymore. Not that the Japanese care, they still hunt whales. Oh the burdens of being a responsible Western country. Fight evil, preach tolerance, aid democracy, avoid tasty fish.

And don't forget - avoid attacking large fleets of warships of a rival power in what is supposedly peace-time (even if during a diplomat contretemp).

Jeff

[Errata]

Hi Adam,

It is okay if you get a trifle off topic. We all seem to at times.

You are right - this December 7th is the 70th anniversary of the attack (and I believe that December 10th is the 70th anniversary of the sinkings of HMS PRINCE OF WALES and REPULSE, which was a similarly meant event by the Japanese, only towards the British. Perhaps (being of a cynical or ironical sense of humor, on December 7th we should try for some good sea food: Chiliean deep Sea Bass. It was the favorite fish of Admiral Yamamoto.

Jeff

ahh but chilean sea bass is a non sustainable food fish, and so we shouldn't eat them anymore. Not that the Japanese care, they still hunt whales. Oh the burdens of being a responsible Western country. Fight evil, preach tolerance, aid democracy, avoid tasty fish.

[Mayerling]

Phil:

Amazing the sort of stuff that comes out when we step outside of the JTR case for a moment, isn't it?

I would still highly recommend "A Child Of Hitler" by Alfons Heck, along with "
Hitler's Table Talk" by Hugh Trevor-Roper. The latter is long and heavy reading at times but you won't find a better insight into the mind of the man who started it all.

Incidentally, the 70th anniversary of Pearl Harbour is fast approaching!

Cheers,
Adam.

Hi Adam,

It is okay if you get a trifle off topic. We all seem to at times.

You are right - this December 7th is the 70th anniversary of the attack (and I believe that December 10th is the 70th anniversary of the sinkings of HMS PRINCE OF WALES and REPULSE, which was a similarly meant event by the Japanese, only towards the British. Perhaps (being of a cynical or ironical sense of humor, on December 7th we should try for some good sea food: Chiliean deep Sea Bass. It was the favorite fish of Admiral Yamamoto.

Jeff

[Adam Went]

Hi Jeff,

Interesting that you should mention Werner Klemperer, as he was of Jewish origins and his family, I recall, was directly affected by the Holocaust and Nazi persecution in the 30's and 40's.

He of course later went on to the role of Colonel Klink in Hogan's Heroes, and some outsiders felt that given the connection he had with the crimes of the Nazi regime, that he would be willing to play a Nazi. Yet Klemperer maintained that the only way in which he could bring himself to do it was to play Klink as the bumbling, naive commandant that we've all seen on TV - really was an interesting connection.

Anyway, sorry to get off topic a little....

Cheers,
Adam.

[Mayerling]

Hi Phil and Errata (and Adam),

Phil that book by Goldfagen has the thesis that more Germans were sufficiently anti-Semitic in the 1930s and 1940s to willingly assist in the Holacaust as an ethnic cleansing they felt was overdue. While the book certainly is worth reading, Goldfagen has been criticized for being overly selective in is proof of the thesis, and it has been suggested that more Germans were more human than Goldfagen made them out to be.

Errata - I saw that film CONSPIRACY about a decade back. It was worth watching to see how relatively easy the planning of the Holacaust could be - but ironically there was a brief scene in an earlier film (JUDGEMENT AT NUREBURG) that illustrated the entire matter quickly.

In JUDGEMENT, the allied prosecutors (led by Richard Widmark) have been presenting the argument about the monstrous guilt involved of the Nazis on trial for at least tens of thousands of deaths in the death camps. Afterwards there is a break for lunch. Werner Klemperer (an unrepentant Nazi jurist - I think he is based on the evil Roland Freisler, of the trial of the July 20th Conspirators) says how dare the Allies present these guesses as lies, and he turns to Torben Meyer (a fellow jurist on trial) and asks if he believes it. Meyer says possibly for a few hundred buy not for the size of the losses Widmark has mentioned. At a nearby table are a bunch of other Nazis also facing trial. One of them (I think he was played by Mike Kellin) is just interested in his lunch, but Meyer asks him point blank if the camps could have killed as many as Widmark suggested. Kellin is still chewing, but he is now mulling over the question, and suddenly, "Well it depends on these factors...." Kellin then proceeds to give a very good report on how the camps could function with railroad rolling stock backup, and adequate staffing to push through a certain number of thousands of prisoners per hour and day so that by the end of a month close to 340,000 or so can be "processed" to the conclusion. Meyer and Kemperer are listening with increasing surprise and panic - sudden it is apparent it can be done! What was wonderful about the scene is that Kellin is not disgusted by what he is saying due to any personal feeling regarding the monstrosity of this - he is what the Soviets would have called an "apparachnik" who probably is proud he is able to meet his quota of doomed Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, or whatever.

Jeff

[Adam Went]

Phil:

Amazing the sort of stuff that comes out when we step outside of the JTR case for a moment, isn't it?

I would still highly recommend "A Child Of Hitler" by Alfons Heck, along with "
Hitler's Table Talk" by Hugh Trevor-Roper. The latter is long and heavy reading at times but you won't find a better insight into the mind of the man who started it all.

Incidentally, the 70th anniversary of Pearl Harbour is fast approaching!

Cheers,
Adam.

[Errata]

Anyone ever see Conspiracy with Kenneth Branaugh and Stanley Tucci? While fictionalized it is based on the surviving transcript of the Wannasee Conference. Of course the definitive movie on the Holocaust is Night and Fog, and although I own a copy, I have never watched it. I want to support keeping the film in print, so I bought it, but I just can't seem to actually open it.

[Phil H]

This thread is really fascinating - I wish more of the Ripper-related threads could be as engaging and provoke this level of debate!

Last night (inspired by this discussion) I took down from my shelves a couple of books that I bought some time ago, but have yet to read:

Hitler's Willing Executioners (Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust) by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen (p/b 1998)

The Origins of the Final Solution (Evolution of Nazi Jewish Policy 39-45) by Christoper R Browning (p/b 2004)

I will now put these higher up my to read list.

Phil

[Adam Went]

Phil:

Yep, it's true. Belgian Royalty, particularly Leopold, has been mentioned as a potential JTR suspect in the past. Nothing to it, of course, but it's a fantasists delight, as with Prince Albert Victor and the like back in the homeland.

As for the camps, the testimony of Rudolf Hoess post-war (that is Hoess the Auschwitz commandant, not to be confused with Rudolf Hess the former Hitler deputy) in relation to the "processing" abilities of his camps and the techniques they used is truly horrifying reading. Hard to comprehend.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Phil H]

"Went the Day Well" is very good - I have a copy. If you have seen "The Eagle has Landed" that is almost a re-make of the earlier film.

Phil

[Mayerling]

Am I right in thinking that Leopold of the Belgians was once a JtR suspect?

On a separate point about the "death camps" - it is ironic in a way that the formalised process which they embodied was introduced for efficiency!

The other methods - shooting, gassing in vans etc were too slow, used up resources (bullets) and had a bad effect on the morale of the military personnel involved. Himmler, I seem to recall, was physically sick when he witnessed a mass executtion.

I think we also must not forget that it was not only Jews who suffered in these camps and in these ways - gypsies/romanies; the mentally and physically challenged (even if Aryan!); homosexuals, communists - almost anyone who could be regarded as an outsider.

Has anyone seen the film "It Happened Here" famous in its day? It was made by Kevin brownlow as an amateur piece but got a proper distribution in the 60s. It is available on dvd. It paints a picture of like in an Engalnd successfully invaded an occupied by the Germans. The key character is a female nurse and she is working in a hospital, late in the film, where all the patients disappear over night - removed to be killed. Its a very powerful piece.

One of the most controversial aspects of the film (at the time) was a discussion involving genuine fascists.

Its an amazing film and some of you might be interested in acquiring it. It sticks in the mind.

Phil

Hi Phil,

I have heard of IT HAPPENED HERE. It was never brought over to the U.S. (I believe) to be shown here. Recently there was a novel by Philip Roth that suggests Chales Lindbergh becoming President as a Republican in 1941 (defeating FDR seeking his third term). Lindbergh appoints Henry Ford Secretary of the Interior, and he puts the Jews into camps, but the purpose is to force them to become farmers (he figures that the Jews will be better citizens if they are not in commerce). The U.S. does not support England in1941, but the public turns slowly against Lindbergh's administration, and the Democrats return to power in 1945. I can't recall the name of the novel.

There is also a movie made in England called WENT HE DAY WELL, about how a fifth column of disguised Germans try to take over a strategic village as the first step in the invasion of England. It was made in the early 1940s.

Jeff

[Phil H]

Am I right in thinking that Leopold of the Belgians was once a JtR suspect?

On a separate point about the "death camps" - it is ironic in a way that the formalised process which they embodied was introduced for efficiency!

The other methods - shooting, gassing in vans etc were too slow, used up resources (bullets) and had a bad effect on the morale of the military personnel involved. Himmler, I seem to recall, was physically sick when he witnessed a mass executtion.

I think we also must not forget that it was not only Jews who suffered in these camps and in these ways - gypsies/romanies; the mentally and physically challenged (even if Aryan!); homosexuals, communists - almost anyone who could be regarded as an outsider.

Has anyone seen the film "It Happened Here" famous in its day? It was made by Kevin brownlow as an amateur piece but got a proper distribution in the 60s. It is available on dvd. It paints a picture of like in an Engalnd successfully invaded an occupied by the Germans. The key character is a female nurse and she is working in a hospital, late in the film, where all the patients disappear over night - removed to be killed. Its a very powerful piece.

One of the most controversial aspects of the film (at the time) was a discussion involving genuine fascists.

Its an amazing film and some of you might be interested in acquiring it. It sticks in the mind.

Phil

[Adam Went]

Phil, Errata, Jeff:

First of all i'd like to thank you very much for your comments, i'm pleased to see that we seem to be in relative agreement on at least one point.

What you say there Phil is exactly why it's vital that we learn lessons from history so the same thing can never be allowed to be repeated. Jeff offers up some interesting examples of other atrocities, but the truth is that nobody in Europe, or the world for that matter, in living memory, could comprehend something on the scale of Auschwitz. An extermination camp specifically designed so that up to 10,000 people per day could be liquidated if those at the helm deemed it suitable to do so. The whole process that the prisoners went through there - those who were not immediately exterminated having to go through slave labour, starvation and diseases. It's hard enough to comprehend now, even knowing what we know and having seen what we've seen, and some people are still in denial that it ever could have happened - imagine what it must have been like for an average citizen in the 1930's.

And Auschwitz was just one camp. There were dozens, if not hundreds, of similar institutions spread across Europe - all with slightly different methods but all with the same ultimate aim.

Most German civilians, and even soldiers, hum a very similar tune to one another in regards to the atrocities that were happening on the doorstep. It's usually along the lines of "We heard rumours from time to time, but didn't believe it."

The camps were liberated eventually but by then it was, as we've said, too late. The damage had been done and millions were dead. It was in about 1935 that action needed to be taken when things started turning a bit sour in Europe, not 1945.

Cheers,
Adam.