Religion is nuts

[cappuccina]

Tom, you sound like an 8 year old who is fighting to hold onto the belief that Santa still exists by offering a circulus in probando argument....I want him to exist, therefore he does, as your "proof"...

Good luck with that in any academic setting...

Phil, I will have to respectfully disagree with you and say that the people who generally try to "stuff their religion down other's throats" are nasty, overly judgemental, and/or mentally ill...

[babybird67]

hi Robert

The earth from whence you came? You were conceived on a picnic?

Well I was born in the sixties so it is quite likely.

[Robert]

Hi Babybird

Just seen your post, which answers my question.

I think the Day of Judgement is out of fashion nowadays - someone might be found guilty when they simply had a bad upbringing, or had mental problems, etc.

The earth from whence you came? You were conceived on a picnic?

[Hatchett]

Hi Jen,

You do not have to apologise. Your views are as valid as anyone else's. I also understand why you would be annoyed if anyone was to pray for you without your consent.

I think that that is a reasonable view.

It is a denial of respect and a breach of your rights of free will.

Best wishes.

David.

[babybird67]

Hi Babybird

Well, they sound a bit tactless. But if they prayed for you without telling you, would that offend you? I mean, would you be worried that a supernatural power might affect you in ways you wouldn't like?

You don't really cast spells, do you?

No, it wouldn't offend me if they prayed for me without telling me. It was the lack of respect for my non-belief and their insistence on praying for me when I told them I really did not want them to as there was nothing to pray for me about (the praying concerned saving my unbelieving soul, not because I was encountering any personal difficulties, so I felt it was patronising and disrespectful to my beliefs).

I have no belief in any supernatural powers. It was the lack of respect that offended me as I showed every respect and support to their choice to believe.

And no, I don't really cast spells, although I have been called spell-binding. That was just an analogy to try to demonstrate to the other person that I might have beliefs which would offend him. I don't think he quite understood.

[babybird67]

But the same applies to people who disbelieve. If someone does not believe in God then they have the right to advise their neighbour of that view but they do not have the right to instruct, or to say that their neighbour is "nuts" to believe or has not got the right to believe.

That is pot kettle black stuff.

Absolutely, Hatchett. It's all about respect I suppose. I apologise for my somewhat sarcastic remarks about imaginary beings in the sky.

People should be free to exercise whatever religious belief gives them comfort and according to their own conscience.

I do not believe there is anything other than this material world and when I die I will return to the earth from whence I came. I respect anybody else's view that there is an afterlife and a Judgement Day. All I ask is that I am not harangued into believing that too or mocked for my lack of belief, and I will attempt not to engage in the same disrespect to them.

[Robert]

Hi Babybird

Well, they sound a bit tactless. But if they prayed for you without telling you, would that offend you? I mean, would you be worried that a supernatural power might affect you in ways you wouldn't like?

You don't really cast spells, do you?

[babybird67]

Hi Babybird

I don't know what it's like in Wales, but I myself haven't been bothered by religious people pitying me etc. The impression I have of the Church of England, is that its only interest is in politics. Instead of standing around waiting for people to save, it stands around waiting for the next bandwaggon.

It's not geographically based Robert. It's some people who are believers who tell me they will pray for me to try to save me whether I wish them to pray for me or not. I don't need or wish anybody praying for me, or dragging me into their beliefs without my consent. The same person would not like me casting a spell for them, because my belief would be an affront to their belief...so why can they just not respect that my belief differs from theirs and leave it be?

[Hatchett]

Hi,

I think the essence of all religion is personal belief and free will. In other words if you believe that there is a God then you also have to believe that that God gave you the freedom to question, to disbelieve, to believe, or choose not to follow.

Jen is right that if someone saw a neightbour doing something that could harm them that they should advise them, but do not have the right to instruct them. That is the same with religion, if someone believes in God then they can advise their neighbour of what they see as the benefits of believing, but they cannot instruct because their neighbour has the freedom of free will to decide to believe or not.

But the same applies to people who disbelieve. If someone does not believe in God then they have the right to advise their neighbour of that view but they do not have the right to instruct, or to say that their neighbour is "nuts" to believe or has not got the right to believe.

That is pot kettle black stuff.

Best wishes.

[Robert]

Hi Babybird

I don't know what it's like in Wales, but I myself haven't been bothered by religious people pitying me etc. The impression I have of the Church of England, is that its only interest is in politics. Instead of standing around waiting for people to save, it stands around waiting for the next bandwaggon.

[babybird67]

And yet is that not what we are often told by doctors and scientists - re the MMR jab - don't have it and "X" will follow; or climate change - alter your behaviors or all life on earth will become extinct, or life will be unbearable!!!

It's not the same. They tell us the risks and benefits and allow us the maturity and intelligence to make up our own minds.

And I ask this - if you thought a neighbour or a family member was doing something that seriously put her family, herself, her child, you, at risk, would you not DO something?

Phil

I'd bring it to their attention, explain why I felt it was wrong and then accept they were making their own minds up and leave them to it.

People who believe in religion should do the same. Explain once, then leave it, not patronise and persist until they alienate the non-believer even more.

People forget that the best way to lead and teach people is by example: who wants to be like someone who harangues and bullies someone else into believing something? And someone who doesn't have the basic respect for another person's view that they continually tell that person they are wrong all the time, with patronising attitudes of 'I pity you because you're not like me, but don't worry I will pray to my imaginary being for you and hopefully you will be saved anyway?'

Not me, for sure.

[babybird67]

and...

what is the proof that he exists?

You might like to tell the major religions that as well, as not only do they seem to be arguing what he is like and what he is called, but you might also like to explain to them why they tell everyone it is necessary to have faith in God precisely because there is no proof that he exists.

(Using 'he' generically here obviously as we don't know what gender the imaginary being in the sky is...until Tom posts his proof of course, hopefully in the form of a birth certificate)

[Stephen Thomas]

God exists. I don't see how that can be challenged.

Hi Tom

So what does he look like and where does he live?

[Phil H]

I find it completely offensive when someone tries to force their beliefs down my throat or tells me or my children that we are going to "burn in hell" because we don't believe or practice something that someone else does.

And yet is that not what we are often told by doctors and scientists - re the MMR jab - don't have it and "X" will follow; or climate change - alter your behaviors or all life on earth will become extinct, or life will be unbearable!!!

Why do they do it? Because they sincerely believe in the truth of what they say and are genuinely fearful of the implications for others who are less well-informed. (I do not necessarily agree with the conclusions but I do accept that the motives of the said doctors and scientists are of the best.

In previous ages, maybe today, some religionists are convinced that without "salvation" man's eternal soul is doomed. Their concern is for the unbeliever - their mothods may be unfortunate.

And I ask this - if you thought a neighbour or a family member was doing something that seriously put her family, herself, her child, you, at risk, would you not DO something?

Phil

[Tom_Wescott]

Wescott, you can choose to believe whatever you want to. However, you cannot say that the existence of "God" is a proven, irrefutable fact, because it isn't.

I can say whatever I want, and yes it is.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott