No limits to immigration

[babybird67]

Babybird, you say you're British because you were born here. Then you say an African can come here and "become" British.

Yes Robert. Nationality is British, race is something else.

That's the distinction i was trying to make (perhaps failing).

British after all isn't a race either.

[Robert]

Babybird, you say you're British because you were born here. Then you say an African can come here and "become" British.

[Sister Hyde]

Well Zodiac, you can't possibly love all your neighbours that's very known. me being the first... I already can't love my own... and still i have nothing against immigration, human varmint is human varmint, different fur... but still a bunch of zeros

[babybird67]

Apparently there's some new DNA data that shows that 90% of English people originally came from Northern Germany .

I thought we all originated from Africa in terms of DNA?

[babybird67]

Babybird, I believe that you are British because you identify with the rest of the British and they with you. You wouldn't need to have been born here. You could have been born on a boat in the middle of the Atlantic.

If on the other hand you were born here of French parents who happened to be working here, but you were then taken to France aged 6 months and brought up in France, where you learned to think of yourself as French, and were accepted as French by those around you, then...you would be French!

Hi Robert

i understand what you're saying but I don't agree. I'm British because I was born here. I think also we can easily confuse nationality with race. I might grow up in France and have French nationality, but I'd still be a British person based on where i was born...I'd still be a white caucasian, i guess, in racial terms.

Nationality can be fluid, like beliefs and social status. I don't think race is ever fluid. A person of African origin can come here and become British (nationality) but he won't change his race - it doesn't take his being an African away.

[Stephen Thomas]

Apparently there's some new DNA data that shows that 90% of English people originally came from Northern Germany .

[Robert]

Babybird, I believe that you are British because you identify with the rest of the British and they with you. You wouldn't need to have been born here. You could have been born on a boat in the middle of the Atlantic.

If on the other hand you were born here of French parents who happened to be working here, but you were then taken to France aged 6 months and brought up in France, where you learned to think of yourself as French, and were accepted as French by those around you, then...you would be French!

[Zodiac]

I have Cornish blood in my tree (great-grandparent). So does that mean that I am one eighth Cornish? Maybe. But perhaps if I followed it back far enough, I might find a bit of Spanish blood in there (Armada). And what is the Spanish blood? Well if I followed that back I might find a bit of Moor, and so on.

The key concept is nationhood : does person A identify with group B? And does group B identify with person A? The identification must be mutual.

If Scotland wanted to declare independence, then the rest of the UK would be quite wrong to try to prevent the Scots from forming their own nation, even if the English, Welsh and Northern Irish were desperate for the Scots to remain. Equally, if the Scots wanted to stay in the UK, but for some reason the rest of the UK didn't want them, then there should be a parting of the ways.

Hi Robert,

Reminds me of that scene in "Blazing Saddles"!!! "Alright, alright... we'll take the n*gg*rs and the chinks... but we don't want the Irish"!!!

Best wishes,

Zodiac.

[babybird67]

race vs religion

i was reading an interesting point somewhere about whether race was a matter of biology or social construct...obviously that would come into play when defining those with certain beliefs as a race.

I personally think race is a matter of biological determinant. I am British because I was born here, not because somebody decides I am British because I believe in drinking tea.

I think classifying those with certain beliefs as a race is a way of making them outsiders, rather than including them as part of the indiginous population.

Looking at the Holocaust, there were Germans who were gassed by fellow Germans - the otherness came in because they were Jews. Seeing those who follow certain beliefs as a 'race' apart rather than acknowledging they are just one of us with separate beliefs, is a form of racism and is then imbibed by those being told they are different/of a different race etc...and it becomes a vicious circle then. They adopt a different 'racial' identity because of years of being told they are of another race.

Race isn't a social or religious construct. One can always change one's social status or religious beliefs. One cannot change one's race.

To me though it's simple. We're all members of the human race. We all 'own' the world because we were all born into the world exactly the same as eachother and will leave it with nothing like everybody else.

The rest is really semantics.

[Robert]

I have Cornish blood in my tree (great-grandparent). So does that mean that I am one eighth Cornish? Maybe. But perhaps if I followed it back far enough, I might find a bit of Spanish blood in there (Armada). And what is the Spanish blood? Well if I followed that back I might find a bit of Moor, and so on.

The key concept is nationhood : does person A identify with group B? And does group B identify with person A? The identification must be mutual.

If Scotland wanted to declare independence, then the rest of the UK would be quite wrong to try to prevent the Scots from forming their own nation, even if the English, Welsh and Northern Irish were desperate for the Scots to remain. Equally, if the Scots wanted to stay in the UK, but for some reason the rest of the UK didn't want them, then there should be a parting of the ways.

[babybird67]

Its ok I can rely on you to push the button..we dont need admin with you on board.
I presume "Sikh/race or religion" is now off topic?

You really are admirably thick aren't you.

What was off topic was your post containing only insult. As stated in the rules which you remain for some reason oblivious to.

Robert and I are able to discuss the issue, which we have done, with mutual respect and consideration. I am sure he can manage to respond to me without your simpering advice.

[glyn]

Admin recently posted a note to ask contributors to read the Major Rules and consequences. Stated within them is this:



You might find yourself on the wrong side of the rules again there.

Its ok I can rely on you to push the button..we dont need admin with you on board.
I presume "Sikh/race or religion" is now off topic?

[Stephen Thomas]

Classic tactics..usual method..the maxim is "when youve lost the argument and have bugger all else to say-criticise punctuation,capitilisation,spelling etc ".....can you not think of anything original?

Hey, dougie,

Nice to see you back. Or are you his Welsh twin?

[babybird67]

Sorry Baby that's not the case. An example - all the children of the eastern European Jews that were born in the UK in the late 1800s were still of the Jewish race even though they were born in the East End.

Helena

I understand what you are saying Helena, but I respectfully disagree. I don't think the Jewish people are a 'race' but a religion.

You can get German Jews, Hungarian Jews etc etc.

[TomTomKent]

I tend to think that the truth is, "race" is a more or less useless word. One could perhaps divide mankind into the three groups of Caucasian, Negro and Mongoloid, but that's about it.

Indeed, as with "species" there are flexible definitions. Not everybody uses either word in the morphogenic sense for example.