No limits to immigration

[Bob Hinton]

Really?

There's no need to try so hard Little Tom Tom, I think many of us now know exactly where you stand.

Many thanks for re -posting my original writings - I think it's so important for the message to keep being spread.

Mind you congratulations for going a whole post without implying I am a racist bigot - you get a gold star for that one!

[TomTomKent]

However that doesn’t alter the fact that there are now gangs of Polish thugs, some as young as ten, who are terrorising Llanelli. My greatest fear is that unless we crack down on those people who just come over here to carry on their lawless ways they will all end up being tarred with the same brush.

If you do not address the very real fears and problems that the people have you open the door to the extremists. Constantly trying to bully people into not expressing these points by calling them racist is exactly what the extremists want.

Except of courtse the complaint has been that these are not the people the discussion was about, nor can the criminal element be considered representative of the larger number, as your statements seemed to imply. If it was not your intention, at least understand how the impression was given, and bare in mind that most posters pointed out how the following could be taken at the time:

"A few facts, people who retire to Spain do not go begging, they do not run drugs rings, they do not traffic in human beings, they do not form organised crime gangs, they do not commit rape, murder, assault and robbery on a daily basis and they do not perform terrorist acts. They do not lie, cheat and steal from their hosts and defraud the host countries of millions of pounds.

What they do though is bring wealth, jobs and trade to the area they settle in."

Of course, some British criminals have indeed retired abroad, and, not all those who settle here do the acts you appear to attributing to them.

Or:

"I think not because you would find that your fear and loathing of certain people is far from 'irrational', but simply a device mechanism to keep you alive"

You of course claimed afterwards "What I'm pointing out is that there is a vast difference between the thousands of people who come to this country to abuse the hospitality and commit criminal acts and those people who want to retire peacefully in another country." Ignoring some key points:
1) Those you talked about retiring peacefully were FROM the UK, and those you described as criminal elements are those ENTERING the UK.
2) You made no reference at all at that point to the much higher proportion of immigrants who are not criminals.
3) It had been explained we were discussing those who entered the country to work, not those who are criminals.

All could have been well at the end of that post, when you suggested that you did not want the two groups confused, which unfortunately was exactly what some of your other posts proceded to do:

But you are the one who is trying to confuse issues here. You implied in a post about immigration that immigrants coming to this country are on a par with emigrants from this country going to Spain to retire.What I pointed out is whereas many immigrants come here for less than altruistic reasons, the overwhelming majority of emigrants just want to live a peaceful life in retirement without being a burden on the country that now hosts them.

"Many" not "a minority", not "some," but "many". After having already suggested that foreign people coming to this country are not, for some reason, the equals of those leaving our own nation.
And here suggesting our exported criminals are preferable to foreign criminals:

Again you are trying to confuse the issue. The Costa del Crime was formed by criminals from other countries flocking to Spain to use it as a safe haven. They did not go there to retire.

Then petty accussations:

Deportation is not a punishment. Seeing as you haven't said you agree with my proposal that all foreign criminals should be deported you must be in favour of keeping foreign criminals here to commit more crime! Well now we know where you stand.

Where you can apparently tell what BabyBird was thinking about a subject she had not commented on.
Then:
[quoute]"Actually a recent study showed that immigrants did not contribute significantly to the wealth of the country. Two main reasons were that a large percentage of wages earned was shipped out and the extra cost to our services outweighed the benefits."[/quote] Which is not entirely true, as you seem to have mistaken various groups as one big "migrant" pot, where as those we were actually discussing, those who come to the UK to work, on average pay more taxes, and ignores that even those who collect benefits pump money back into society through means of VAT.

Then, in a stroke of genius, you rebutted my comment about the east End of 1888 with:

"Quite right Tom Tom, it's all in our imagination. Remind me again about the robbers who murdered a police officer and injured 21 other people in 1909 in Tottenham, oh and wasn't there something about three police officers being murdered in Houndsditch in 1910, and of of course there was the jolly little get together in Sidney Street in 1911.

Oh these immigrant scamps! Robbing and murdering people on the streets of London all a bit of a laugh really wasn't it?"

Three points Bob: 1) You seem to be suggesting that the anti-semitic fears of 1888 were entirely justified, as all those immigrant scamps were busy killing people.
2) You seem to be suggesting these justified fears were based on murders that would not happen untill 11 years in the future.
3) Even if you recognise that a minority of immigrants were involved in the crimes, you have still justified a xenophobic fear of the entire immigrant community.

This is at complete odds with your claimed motive. And if taken at face value would appear to be xenophobic bordering on racism.


Then this:

"Say after me "All immigrants are good people -even the ones who rob, rape, murder and steal""

Except of course, nobody had said that Bob.

Now, let's compare and contrast:
"Wow so considering the immigrant population of this country is between 5% and 7% you're saying that 14% of crimes are committed by immigrants? Slightly top heavy wouldn't you say."
To which babybird comments "Don't let that affect your idea that our country would be crime free if only we sent the little blighters back to their countries of origin though would you?"
And you reply:
"Would you mind showing me exactly where I have said or even suggested that?
It's quite obvious you belong to the Limehouse/Caps school of discussion. Make up things then accuse the other person of saying them."
The answer being: When you said that immigrants were responsible for a top heavy proportion of crime. Now, about making things up, would that include suggesting others said that even criminal immigrants are nice?

Then, after having made a big point about not wanting criminals and hard working immigrants confused, you go and insinuate the two groups are one and the same:
Here’s some more peace loving immigrants, who have only come here to work hard for a better life for their families:
and again...
Here's some more:
and again...
This sort of thing does not endear immigrants to the British people. The overwhelming majority of these people are criminals who the government is not ejecting.

And again...
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1O6RcRKoR

Were just trying to provide a few crusts of bread.
And again...
What I - and thousands of others are asking - is why when we have our own home grown criminals do we insist on importing more?
Except of course, nobody had insisted any such thing...
Not forgetting:
Of course there will always be discrimination and in a lot of cases that is a good thing.

Anyway, remember how Bob didn't want hard working immigrants confused with criminals:
But don’t worry folks as soon as these criminals get here they all magically turn into law abiding hardworking people who only want to improve the country.
Sheesh. (Oh, and myself and others are STILL pointing out that this is at odds to your stated inentions at this point. If you truly did not want to imply that there is no difference between the criminal minority and the majority of immigrants, surely you can see why these statements are poorly worded? That is exactly what they imply.
"Another wonderful immigrant who came to this country to work – unfortunately he considered his work to be that of a murderer."
Then...
Nice to see all these immigrants working for the benefit of the country that is giving them jobs and money! Oh gosh they're not actually they're
stripping money out of our economy and sending it to theirs.
Once again suggesting people who enter the country as hard workers are exactly the same as the criminals.
Then...
Oh dear, a couple more imports that seem to have gone wrong – the scamps. They put on their application forms they wanted to work here – it’s a pity their work consisted of robbery, violence and burglary! Still never mind eh? I’m quite sure the LWL are pleased that more criminals have been successfully imported into Britain.
Which of course once again suggests that those who apply to enter the country for work will invariably turn to crime...
Once again we have allowed an odious person to remain in Britain. No doubt the LWL applaud the presence of this person in our country.
Which nobody had. Pointed out that even criminals are allowed due process and human rights perhaps, but applaud? Hmmm. What happened to no not misrepresenting people Bob?
And again, you suggest that those who are criminals are the same as those who wish to work...
Gosh what a surprise! After all they only wanted to go to France to work – they are apparently professional criminals.

[Bob Hinton]

True

Thank you for those beautiful pictures Bob - and bless you and your wife for providing things that we take so much for granted but are so valued by these people.

.

I heard about these schools and hospitals from a local lady whose husband had driven a landrover all the way to Gambia to raise money for them. At first we gave money but really wanted to see for ourselves.

It makes you think about things. We also went to another hospital run for pregnant women and run by a single nun. We gave them things like soap and toothpaste and silly things like eau de Cologne. The ladies liked the perfume best! We made friends with a local chap ( he owned the Mercedes) and paid him to take us round the various places. He took us to the local markets to buy the stuff - it's better to buy in the country as you are putting a bit of cash into the local economy, also it's much easier to carry cash out as trying to carry bag full of goods.

You really have to think about what life is like out there. One of our group was going to buy boxes of biros and I suggested she take pencils and rubbers.

I explained that after they had done their work in pencil they could rub it out and have a clean sheet of paper to use again.

Spectacles are always needed desperately. I remember handing them over to the nurse and she called one of the older ladies over and tried some on her. She suddenly gave a whoop and started running around the compound.

The nurse explained it was the first time she had seen anything for ten years.

So remember, next time you are in a charity shop try and score some spectacles - I know just where they are needed!

I've got some more piccys of Gambia if you want to see them.

[glyn]

The thread is "limits to immigration" ............ hence a light hearted observation/comment regarding a serious issue that concerns an awful lot of people......exaggerated for the sake of effect maybe.The situation in Britain is so dire that the only action one can take is to laugh or joke about it in my view.Its not about race,or colour or creed ..its about overpopulation,tottering social services ,tax payers money being handed out hither and thither,silly views about what constitutes racism,bigotry and the like,and the fact that Britain is a soft touch for anyone who plays the ethnic minority/human rights card.......I hope that helps you.

[Limehouse]

To the president/prime minister/ of Algeria,
Dear Sir/Madam
As I am making plans to emigrate to your fine country,I thought I would take this opportunity to drop you a line to inform you that I will be arriving in approximately two weeks time,which should allow you ample opportunity to make arrangements for my arrival.
Upon my arrival,I Will,naturally enough ,expect to be given a motor vehicle ,and accomodation at a 5 star hotel,paid for of course by the Algerian Tax payer.Furthermore I will need a weekly allowance of the equivalent of £1000 sterling to be paid into my bank account every monday by 10 p.m sharp.I ALso expect,should I require it,the best medical treatment available,and to jump ahead in any hospital waiting list comprised of mere Algerian natives .I will ,naturally enough require a short sabbatical upon my arrival,lets say a 12 months,before I start work.I must have preferential status ,as an immigrant,in any position I apply for....the same will apply for my wife ,7 children,3 uncles,2 grandfathers,who will be arriving a fortnight after myself.
All places ofAlgerian worship must be torn down and replaced by roman catholic churches.I must be free to criticise each and every native who crosses my path,while any native who says rude or naughty things about Englishmen or England must be summarily executed.Of course it goes without saying that your country must adopt English as the first language Well dear President I think Ive included everything and
Ive no doubt the populace will welcome me the minute I step off the plane.Oh! sorry I did indeed forget something...its of minor importance ,but Ill mention it in passing....Im not a bad person,but Ive been discriminated against so much in my own country that unfortunately I have fell foul of the law on a few occasions.My list of convictions read thus
3 conviction for GBH
1 attempted rape
39 shoplifting convictions
5 convictions for sexually interfering
with a staffordshire bull terrier
1 indecent exposure charge (not proven)
56 convictions for fraud
Im sure these trumped up charges will be no barrier to my entry into your very fine country..
OOH I cant wait.Im getting really excited about it all..a new life-everything paid for......I really cant believe it1

If there is a point to this I am afraid I've missed it. Could you explain it please?

[glyn]

To the president/prime minister/ of Algeria,
Dear Sir/Madam
As I am making plans to emigrate to your fine country,I thought I would take this opportunity to drop you a line to inform you that I will be arriving in approximately two weeks time,which should allow you ample opportunity to make arrangements for my arrival.
Upon my arrival,I Will,naturally enough ,expect to be given a motor vehicle ,and accomodation at a 5 star hotel,paid for of course by the Algerian Tax payer.Furthermore I will need a weekly allowance of the equivalent of £1000 sterling to be paid into my bank account every monday by 10 p.m sharp.I ALso expect,should I require it,the best medical treatment available,and to jump ahead in any hospital waiting list comprised of mere Algerian natives .I will ,naturally enough require a short sabbatical upon my arrival,lets say a 12 months,before I start work.I must have preferential status ,as an immigrant,in any position I apply for....the same will apply for my wife ,7 children,3 uncles,2 grandfathers,who will be arriving a fortnight after myself.
All places ofAlgerian worship must be torn down and replaced by roman catholic churches.I must be free to criticise each and every native who crosses my path,while any native who says rude or naughty things about Englishmen or England must be summarily executed.Of course it goes without saying that your country must adopt English as the first language Well dear President I think Ive included everything and
Ive no doubt the populace will welcome me the minute I step off the plane.Oh! sorry I did indeed forget something...its of minor importance ,but Ill mention it in passing....Im not a bad person,but Ive been discriminated against so much in my own country that unfortunately I have fell foul of the law on a few occasions.My list of convictions read thus
3 conviction for GBH
1 attempted rape
39 shoplifting convictions
5 convictions for sexually interfering
with a staffordshire bull terrier
1 indecent exposure charge (not proven)
56 convictions for fraud
Im sure these trumped up charges will be no barrier to my entry into your very fine country..
OOH I cant wait.Im getting really excited about it all..a new life-everything paid for......I really cant believe it1

[Limehouse]

Thank you for those beautiful pictures Bob - and bless you and your wife for providing things that we take so much for granted but are so valued by these people.

When any of my student groups get rowdy and uncooperative - I tell them how lucky they are to be getting a free education. I have a link on my computer to a website that shows a film of children in Africa doing many household chores before they walk happily and joyfully to school many miles away. It never fails to touch their hearts and is a great motivator.

[Bob Hinton]

Greetings.

On another matter entirely. My wife and I were in Gambia a few years ago. Before we left we stocked up with books, pencils, rubbers and other useful things for a school we were helping. I also scoured the charity shops begging or buying all the spectacles they had to give to hospitals. What your grandmother threw away can give sight to some poor soul.

Getting there is another matter; roads are nonexistent in some areas, even in cities you have to travel by truck. One of the photos shows our Mercedes getting stuck in the mud, the car behind wasn’t so lucky, he fell off the road.

The teacher was a lovely woman whose teaching aids mainly consisted of a roll of paper stuck on the wall. The other two are of the children. They have to pay for schooling and some of them walk 10 miles through the bush to get to school.

[TomTomKent]

Oh, so you just didn't understand when it was pointed out to you that this is not a discussion about anybody other than those who wish to use their legitimate right to work? Or are you under the flawed impression that anybody has tried to claim that criminal activities are somehow legitimate work protected by human rights? In which case you are simply wrong.

[Bob Hinton]

"Immigrants" may not be a race. But Bobs postsseemto imply immigrants are criminal because of their race, as Eastern Europeans. tit.

What utter tosh. I don’t know what experience little Tom Tom has of other countries, mine is quite extensive. I lived for a time in the Ukraine – and you don’t get much easter in Europe than that- and with one single exception the people I met there were the kindest, nicest people you could ever hope to meet, and I am proud to still call them friends.

One of our closest friends today is a Polish family, Aggie and Kristoff and better people you could not hope to meet. The chap who builds my computers over the last 10 years is Polish, his English is terrible but you give him a pile of pieces and he can create just about anything. These people are decent hardworking people who have come over here to find a better life, they are doing it by integrating themselves into the community and the community is far the richer for it.

When the Poles starting to arrive in Llanelli a young couple opened a delicatessen and coffee shop (Lolek it’s still there). They started getting a lot of hassle from the local yobs, so I made a point of going in there every day for a coffee and sitting rather obviously near the door.

However that doesn’t alter the fact that there are now gangs of Polish thugs, some as young as ten, who are terrorising Llanelli. My greatest fear is that unless we crack down on those people who just come over here to carry on their lawless ways they will all end up being tarred with the same brush.

If you do not address the very real fears and problems that the people have you open the door to the extremists. Constantly trying to bully people into not expressing these points by calling them racist is exactly what the extremists want.

The greatest recruiting aid to the BNP is the Anti Nazi League.

[Bob Hinton]

Certainly.

If Bob has a reason for his comments how illegal criminals are "just wanting to work" beyond the face value, perhaps he should clarify it.

Certainly it's a very straightforward concept, criminals look upon crime as their work.

[Bob Hinton]

Really?

What is that, if not the racist implication that all immigrants should be considered criminals?

No - just the one's committing crimes, sorry if that's too difficult a concept for you to understand.

[glyn]

My apologies- part of my post was not relevant to this thread.my mistake

[glyn]

reasons

Britain is allready overpopulated-The NHS is buckling under the strain of coping with its native population,let alone incomers-Housing (affordable) is scarce-We have enough of our own freeloaders without importing them-There are four reasons to limit immigration, off the top of my head.Its not racist or bigoted to say that,though some would hope it was.
Enoch Powell might have had a bad press in certain quarters,but at the time he made" that" speech he had the support of the majority.And of course his concerns (and those of the electorate) have been shown to be valid concerns,not nonsense or right wing "rabble rousing"
As we have seen here,the authors ,and the supporters of the mindset that encourage untramelled immigration,"positive discrimination"(which of course is still discrimination by any other name ) and the rest always leave themselves "wriggle room" to get retrieve their situation when tough questions aree asked of them. We live unfortunately in an age where "no sense seems to make sense " where human rights,so called racism,and Socialist rants about the creators of wealth are concerned . Soviets fought for best part of a century to cast off the yoke of Communism,it seems that some here would be only too happy to inflict that odious system(or some loony and unworkable adaption of it) on the West........

[TomTomKent]

"Immigrants" may not be a race. But Bobs postsseemto imply immigrants are criminal because of their race, as Eastern Europeans. Otherwise why compare the criminal few to thosewho genuinely wish to work? I am sorry,but there are few other ways to take the post and the statements at the end of the post in particular. Nor for xenophobic statements about there being no indigenous citizens left in 40 years.

If Bob has a reason for his comments how illegal criminals are "just wanting to work" beyond the face value, perhaps he should clarify it.