Burka

[Bob Hinton]

No Bob,



This 'its British culture to speak to the face' is completely new to me. Ive heard individuals use it as a preference, but never expressed as a cultural thing.

Should we adopt a stiff upper lip old chap?

Monty

It's not a British thing it's a Western thing and dates back to time where the only reason a stranger had for covering his face was so that they could attack you. If whilst wearing armour you wished to signify that your intentions were peaceful you raised the visor on your helmet to show that you meant no harm.

But even before that the face in humans and animals has always been the first indicator of how the person or animal was likely to react. A dog which is snarling is intimidating - showing his teeth in an agressive manner - this is a warning. Likewise a person who is snarling is sending out the same message, but a person who is smiling generally means no harm.

When the SAS get kittted up to storm a building their costume is very carefully chosen to be the most intimidating black clothing and a completely covered face.

As for having a stiff upper lip, that's fine but your lip is stiffest due to rigor mortis. We are very tolerant of some very intolerant people - just for once in our lifetime can't we be the people who are shown respect?

[Limehouse]

Ah yes. Immigrant women should be equal to western women in their freedom and opportunities--unless of course they choose to exercise their freedom by being submissive to their men. Then we should take away their freedom of choice and we should be the ones telling them how they ought to behave and dress.

Very Good point Ally, and as I have tried to point out previously, many Muslim women see the Burka as a form of liberation and freedom from the judgement often imposed by the male gaze. I personally do not see much freedom in constantly being berated for being too fat, too thin, too ugly etc which is the kind of treatment dished out to many women who have the 'freedom' to walk about uncovered.

[Limehouse]

By that token perhaps it would be fairer to the poor spotty youths who can’t so easily get away with any antisocial behaviour because their hoods are banned if obese women were banned from wearing pink velour tracksuits for offending the eye. Hoods are banned from shopping centres for the simple reason that experience tells the police that many of the offences committed there are done under the cover of a hood. It doesn’t apply, as far as I am aware, to women wearing a burka to please their man, themselves or their fellow burka wearers, any more than it applies to a thing in a hideous tracksuit constantly stuffing its cakehole with empty calories and dropping the litter everywhere. Being antisocial in public is one thing; simply keeping oneself to oneself - being unsociable if you will - is not a crime yet and nobody need feel offended by it.

The day someone expects me to wear one of the vile things (hood, burka or tracksuit) is the day I will get seriously huffy and offended.



Yeah, Bob. You can’t go anywhere in London these days without seeing Eastern Europeans offending or running riot - in between working all hours, of course, for minimum pay, doing poxy horrible jobs the British with our benefit culture don’t want or need.

The last criminal I saw in Brick Lane was a white northerner, still drinking from the night before, who was running off with his two mates after smacking a sari shop owner round the chops out of sheer cussedness. I later learned that the victim had to pay his fare to Watford to attend court as a witness and when he got there they told him the case had been postponed. The charge had also been reduced from actual bodily harm to causing a breach of the peace.

People are people, good and bad. It's the system that so often stinks.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz,

The wearing of a hood does not necessarily equate to criminality or anti-social behaviour any more than being Muslim and wearing a Burka or a rucsac equates to terrorism or extremism. However, as hoods have, as you describe, been used to hide a person's identity following a criminal act it is understandable why they should be banned.

I completely take your point about the incident in Brick Lane. I personally see far more criminality among the young locals of many generations standing (and among their parents and grandparents, in some cases) than I do among the hard-working immigrants who have arrived in the Fens in recent years to enjoy and better standard of living than they would back home.

[Ally]

Equality of every member of a society is important, and I think that we should actively encourage, by law, immigrant women to be equal to western women in their freedom and opportunities -and not tolerate symbols of female submission to males.

Ah yes. Immigrant women should be equal to western women in their freedom and opportunities--unless of course they choose to exercise their freedom by being submissive to their men. Then we should take away their freedom of choice and we should be the ones telling them how they ought to behave and dress.

[Robert]

Caz, re your argument that Moslem women are unlikely to rob shopping centres :

True enough. But when airport security was at its height, they were checking everyone, weren't they? If they'd only checked Asians, that would have been "racist." Yet white people are extremely unlikely to fly planes into buildings or set off bombs on the underground (the latter is unlikely now that we have the peace deal in Northern Ireland).

It would help the argument if the Liberal Establishment were to define what they mean by "race" or "racism" because at the moment they don't seem to have a clue. The words are simply used as missiles.

[Rubyretro]

This 'its British culture to speak to the face' is completely new to me. Ive heard individuals use it as a preference, but never expressed as a cultural thing.

I don't think that it's a 'British Culture' thing...it's probably even more than a European thing...a 'mammal' thing more likely...ever seen animals fight? I don't think that they'd turn their backs, as that would mean 'submission'.

Of course 'submission' is what this 'Burka' thing is all about..and women in the West have fought for equality, and I don't feel that we should accept the Burka in our society.

If a Burka wearing woman were ever allowed to meet me -make up wearing,
wine sipping & fag smoking & dirty joke telling as I am- then I would be very interested in talking to her...but I feel that the male b.....d who made her
wear that Burka was making a comment about me, and the lifestyle of women in the society in which we are living.

Equality of every member of a society is important, and I think that we should actively encourage, by law, immigrant women to be equal to western women in their freedom and opportunities -and not tolerate symbols of female submission to males.

[caz]

I think problems are casued though, where rules are imposed on some groups and not others. For example, the wearing of hoods is not permitted in our local shoppiong centre as they are seen as intimidating and are associated with people wishing to hide their faces due to theft or other crimes. However, the Burka is not banned (although we have very few women here wearing them) and that does seem to be unfair.

By that token perhaps it would be fairer to the poor spotty youths who can’t so easily get away with any antisocial behaviour because their hoods are banned if obese women were banned from wearing pink velour tracksuits for offending the eye. Hoods are banned from shopping centres for the simple reason that experience tells the police that many of the offences committed there are done under the cover of a hood. It doesn’t apply, as far as I am aware, to women wearing a burka to please their man, themselves or their fellow burka wearers, any more than it applies to a thing in a hideous tracksuit constantly stuffing its cakehole with empty calories and dropping the litter everywhere. Being antisocial in public is one thing; simply keeping oneself to oneself - being unsociable if you will - is not a crime yet and nobody need feel offended by it.

The day someone expects me to wear one of the vile things (hood, burka or tracksuit) is the day I will get seriously huffy and offended.

More recently large influxes of foreigners have always been followed by sharp rises in crime as the incomers run riot. This doesn’t endear them to people.

Yeah, Bob. You can’t go anywhere in London these days without seeing Eastern Europeans offending or running riot - in between working all hours, of course, for minimum pay, doing poxy horrible jobs the British with our benefit culture don’t want or need.

The last criminal I saw in Brick Lane was a white northerner, still drinking from the night before, who was running off with his two mates after smacking a sari shop owner round the chops out of sheer cussedness. I later learned that the victim had to pay his fare to Watford to attend court as a witness and when he got there they told him the case had been postponed. The charge had also been reduced from actual bodily harm to causing a breach of the peace.

People are people, good and bad. It's the system that so often stinks.

Love,

Caz
X

[anna]

Exactly.

Thanks Bob...you are 100% correct.

We apologise for everything and get bullied into accepting everything.

This country is losing it's identity. Being in the EU hasn't helped.

[Monty]

No Bob,

I am not stating Britain does not have a culture to call their own at all. I am stating that some of what we take for British culture was bought to this Kingdom by foriegners, and some were deemed unacceptable and opposed to the British way of life. However, over time, we have grown accustomed and even embraced these influences.

All the muslims I know, and believe me I know many, do indeed 'live in Rome'. This 'its British culture to speak to the face' is completely new to me. Ive heard individuals use it as a preference, but never expressed as a cultural thing.

Should we adopt a stiff upper lip old chap?

Monty

[Bob Hinton]

Sounds fair enough Bob but I can see a situation whereby two British Muslim women sit quite comfortably talking to each other, each wearing a Burka.

I suppose the only solution to the problem is to allow the wearing of the Burka providing it is not by force, but if asked to remove it, for official reasons, it should be removed.

At our college, we have only had one case of a Muslim woman wishing to wear a Burka. As the wearing of indentity cards is compulsory, her face was photographed by another woman in a private room and her photograph is hidden on the card, but can be revealed if necessary.

I think problems are casued though, where rules are imposed on some groups and not others. For example, the wearing of hoods is not permitted in our local shoppiong centre as they are seen as intimidating and are associated with people wishing to hide their faces due to theft or other crimes. However, the Burka is not banned (although we have very few women here wearing them) and that does seem to be unfair.

But what you are doing is saying we must respect the Muslim culture but at the same time not asking the same of the Muslims. This is our country. If they insist on following their culture and not ours then fine, off you go back to your own country.

I will quite happily agree with two Muslim women in Burkas chatting to themselves when two bikini clad Westerners can do the same in a Muslim country. Oh that’s right they can’t can they because it offends their sensibilities. Apparently we are not entitled to any sensibilities in our own country.

Your case about the Muslim with an ID card is a perfect example. The purpose of a photo ID card is to enable an instant match between the person on the card and the person wearing it. How on earth can this happen in this case? You have no idea who is under the clothing. This woman must conform to the regulations laid down or leave.

Whatever next? Someone wants to stone someone to death in the street and we must let them because it’s part of their culture?

What you say about hoodies is exactly on point. The indigenous population is being forced to act in a certain way when incomers are not. This all started when Sikhs were excused crash helmets while the rest of the country was threatened with hefty fines if they failed to do so.

It simply is not fair and I think one shining value that we Britons used to have was fairness.

If someone doesn’t step in quickly and stop this you are going to have trouble in this country the like of which you have never seen before.
All we are asking for is simply if you come to live in our country and take the benefits of living in our country then respect our culture. If you can’t do that then leave.

[Bob Hinton]

Bob,

Churchward was an artist, Lee is a tv chef/presenter/actress and Khan is a pugilist.

One born in Aldershot of white parentage, one born in Jamica but moved to England when very young and one born in Bolton of Pakistani decent. All considered themselves to be British, all muslim.

Why should they leave a country they bought recognition to, bought trade to, a country they consider home?

This British culture you speak of is made up of facets from other nations and a multitude of religions. The Christmas tree, German. Football and tea Chinese. Cricket, Flanders I believe. When placed under a microscope this nation is a mismash of cultral traditions bought in from foriegn fields.



Monty

But Monty who is asking them to? Apparently they are all happy here and have integrated very well with the rest of us. As another poster has pointed out one of them has even put themselves forward for election. In these circumstances why should anyone want them to leave?

I’m surprised ( perhaps not really) that you try and bring up the mongrel British argument, that Britain in the past has been populated by many races therefore we are not entitled to claim anything as our culture. Well that holds good for everyone on the planet so using your argument the Muslims should not be allowed to do claim anything as their culture because they obviously don’t have one either!

There are two very strong arguments against mongrel Britain being used as a great example of multiculturism (whatever that is). First off every large influx of peoples from abroad has led to years of bloodshed and violence and it has taken hundreds of years for those incomers to be assimilated into our culture or as in many cases become a part of an evolving culture, and these were people who shared many of our own characteristics.

More recently large influxes of foreigners have always been followed by sharp rises in crime as the incomers run riot. This doesn’t endear them to people.

Secondly you overlook the fact that these incomers who have integrated have formed eventually a new form of native if you like. For example if you mix carbon and iron ore in the right quantities you get steel. In just the same way if you mix all those races of long ago you end up with a Briton of today. However if those elements do not wish to mingle then you end up with lumps of coal and iron ore – you don’t get the steel!

[Robert]

The integration of immigrant communities is a long and painful process. It's happened here to a certain extent, but it still has a long way to go.

Anyone can wave a piece of paper, but I think to be part of a nation the person concerned must :

1. Accept a large majority of the members of that nation as his co-nationals.
2. Be accepted by a large majority of the members of that nation as his co-nationals.

Somebody once said that a good test is whether people are having to watch what they say all the time, treading on egg shells. One can happily make a joke about, say, Yorkshiremen being mean with money. But sometimes in this country the reaction to a joke is "Help! Police! I'm being offended! Racial stereotyping!" This isn't good.

[Limehouse]

No British person should have to talk to someone in a Burka. This has nothing to do with religion or racism it’s simply that in our culture we talk to people face to face.

Now if someone doesn’t want to respect our culture that’s fine, as long as they leave the country. If this person is forced to speak to someone in a Burka then I think he should declare himself a naturist and insist on talking to the Burka clad one in the nude!

Sounds fair enough Bob but I can see a situation whereby two British Muslim women sit quite comfortably talking to each other, each wearing a Burka.

I suppose the only solution to the problem is to allow the wearing of the Burka providing it is not by force, but if asked to remove it, for official reasons, it should be removed.

At our college, we have only had one case of a Muslim woman wishing to wear a Burka. As the wearing of indentity cards is compulsory, her face was photographed by another woman in a private room and her photograph is hidden on the card, but can be revealed if necessary.

I think problems are casued though, where rules are imposed on some groups and not others. For example, the wearing of hoods is not permitted in our local shoppiong centre as they are seen as intimidating and are associated with people wishing to hide their faces due to theft or other crimes. However, the Burka is not banned (although we have very few women here wearing them) and that does seem to be unfair.

[Zodiac]

Rustie Lee is also a member of UKIP and stood as their candidate for the Wyre Forest constituency in the 2005 general election. She also appeared in the party's election broadcast (see link below). On polling day she came fifth, with 1,074 votes (2.3% of the total) Lee stood for UKIP again in the 2009 European Elections, for the West Midlands in June 2009. Once again an epic fail. Maybe she just isn't connecting with UKIP's "core" voters?

Zodiac.

P.S. youtube link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqBfOouXR7k

[Monty]

Bob,

Churchward was an artist, Lee is a tv chef/presenter/actress and Khan is a pugilist.

One born in Aldershot of white parentage, one born in Jamica but moved to England when very young and one born in Bolton of Pakistani decent. All considered themselves to be British, all muslim.

Why should they leave a country they bought recognition to, bought trade to, a country they consider home?

This British culture you speak of is made up of facets from other nations and a multitude of religions. The Christmas tree, German. Football and tea Chinese. Cricket, Flanders I believe. When placed under a microscope this nation is a mismash of cultral traditions bought in from foriegn fields.

Anna,

No, not racism, just the begining of the Allport system...and we know where that led.

Monty