Burka

[Limehouse]

Cappuccina, what I think is that the collective wisdom and commonsense of society as a whole is greater than that found in sociology departments. We are not talking quantum mechanics here, where the experts must reign supreme. We are talking about fundamental issues of morality and human nature, and I for one am not prepared to acknowledge the professionalisation of these issues by so-called experts.

Hi Robert

Why do sociologists become so? Aren't they concerned with morality and human nature? There is a lot to be said for the 'collective wisom and commonsense of society' and I think you would struggle to find a sociologist who didn't supoport it!

[Limehouse]

As usual with the poverty causes crime thesis people miss the important truth. It’s not that poverty makes criminals (our own experiences in Britain show that) it’s that criminals make poverty.

I can show you affluent areas of Britain that have been that way for hundreds of years and yet when the criminals move in they are quickly reduced to crime ridden sinks. Look at Brixton, look at Toxteth.

It’s like trying to blame illiteracy for crime. You get all these egg heads saying it’s obviously the cause as a large percentage of criminals are illiterate, therefore if only we could teach the little darlings to read and write they would not be criminals. Rubbish. The reason why the majority of criminals are illiterate is because they are criminals. These are the nasty disruptive children who ruin every child’s chance of learning in the classroom as well as their own, who go on to be nasty teenagers who are expelled from school who go on to be nasty adults who are criminals.

What they really needed was jumping on hard in school at the first sign of nastiness, but as soon as you let them know the way to get adults flocking around you cooing and billing was to be nasty and disruptive they carried on, and look at the result.

Bob

Where do I start?

Poverty means fewer books in the home which means few opportunities for sharing early reading. Poverty means stressed parents which impacts on children. Poverty for some children is caused by parents' addiction to drink or drugs or both which means a disruptive lifestyle - no proper routine - irregular meals - no constructive conversations that stimulate litreracy. The connection between poverty - illiteracy and crime is well established and as I work in this area - literacy development - and as I lecture in literacy education and also teach basic literacy to 16-19 year olds - I know what I am talking about.

There is also another type of poverty that stimulates economic poverty and that is the poverty of aspiration. It seeps into families and communities and impoverishes them because to crawl out of the hole is so much harder than to sink back into it. It is much harder for people at the bottom of the pile to achieve things that others take for granted.

I am no softy. I believe in tough love. That means creating opportunities and expecting people to grasp them - with lots of help - because it's good for them.

[Limehouse]

I'm not sure that the stats back up the statement, Robert, that most violent offenders are not from poorer social classes. However, it's quite clear that such offending amongst more affluent groups is likely under-reported; I'm specifically thinking of domestic violence, which I know wasn't your focus, but there is very obvious under-reporting of DV amongst middle class women who may, eventually, approach support agencies but not want the shame of prosecution. Oh, how **** all has changed in 150 years.

Nevertheless, problems with the stats notwithstanding, I don't think it's quite credible to presume that *most* violent offenders come from better backgrounds. In general, their residential areas are not good and they tend to offend on their own patch...it's such a truism that it's almost boring.

I think the likelihood is that you'll find a greater socio-economic distribution as you climb the seriousness ladder--affray, ABH, common assault et cetera are generally the domain of the lower-class offender (DV aside, although without a report/record, a classification on the offence is hard to come by), whereas I'd imagine you'd find a more proportionate representation of middle class offenders higher up that ladder (although I do suspect that their MOs are generally different).

I don't think for a moment that we should see people of a better socio-economic class as having a better upbringing, or one that mitigates against the possibility of offending. But I do think that, in keeping with the aspirations/ambitions of the middle classes to always have more, do more, be more, that middle class offenders commit very different sorts of crimes, in different ways...even when other posters have mentioned middle-class murderers, they seem to be motivated at least as much by money, the wish to gain it or the fear of losing it.

Anyhow, ramblings from your resident statistician and erstwhile Home Office criminologist. Crap, then, in other words!!

Beautifully put Claire.

[cappuccina]

...Wrong again Watson...

http://www.nald.ca/fulltext/report3/rep28/REP28-04.HTM

[Bob Hinton]

Very interesting but,

As usual with the poverty causes crime thesis people miss the important truth. It’s not that poverty makes criminals (our own experiences in Britain show that) it’s that criminals make poverty.

I can show you affluent areas of Britain that have been that way for hundreds of years and yet when the criminals move in they are quickly reduced to crime ridden sinks. Look at Brixton, look at Toxteth.

It’s like trying to blame illiteracy for crime. You get all these egg heads saying it’s obviously the cause as a large percentage of criminals are illiterate, therefore if only we could teach the little darlings to read and write they would not be criminals. Rubbish. The reason why the majority of criminals are illiterate is because they are criminals. These are the nasty disruptive children who ruin every child’s chance of learning in the classroom as well as their own, who go on to be nasty teenagers who are expelled from school who go on to be nasty adults who are criminals.

What they really needed was jumping on hard in school at the first sign of nastiness, but as soon as you let them know the way to get adults flocking around you cooing and billing was to be nasty and disruptive they carried on, and look at the result.

[Bob Hinton]

Interesting story in the Daily Mail today about two people being allowed to board a plane wearing burka’s without having to prove their identity. So a group of Muslims were allowed to board a plane in Canada and at least two of them have their features completely hidden, so in effect you have no idea who is travelling.

Great security!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1299914/Airline-security-probe-veiled-women-board-Heathrow-bound-flight-showing-faces.html

[Rubyretro]

Sorry, Robert -I'm a bit late with this reply...I'm very busy now

Well, Robert , you certainly couldn't accuse me of living in a suburb ! I live in (my own house) in a quarter of Avignon, 'intra-muros', boiling over with prostitution, drug dealing, violence, racial tension, and for the most part divided into cheap bedsits with a floating population.

I certainly agree with Limehouse on hanging -but that's another story.

As to your idea of removing troubled children, who disrupt classes, to a 'Special School' -my own personal experience tells me a totally different story ! Here it is:

Avignon has a number of different secondary schools (colleges), with different
classifications linked to their results, and my two boys (15, and 12) go to one of the two 'best' (Avignon is twinned with York, so know that, although I live in a 'dodgy area', a great many of the kids are of the 'poshest' families also 'within the walls', go to the same school.

A couple of years ago, the Council decided to close a school with the worst classification, frequented almost entirely by immigrant kids from sink estates (to give you an idea, a friend of my participated in a voluntary plan to be 'godmother' to a little Arab girl from the school, and help her with her homework -the child lived 15 minutes on foot from the 'Walls', but had never seen the Pope's Palace). The Council's idea was to bus (free) the children into town and divide them between the two best schools.

The result was a mass exodus in advance of half the teachers from 'my school', followed by a number of the 'posh' kids changing schools. I have to say that I was very worried by this 'Social Experiment' and there was a great deal of pressure from my youngest son to switch schools too -but a couple of years done the line, I think that not only has it been a success, but everyone has benefitted from it :

-by spreading the difficult kids through all the classes, despite some teething troubles, they calmed down when isolated
from their cohorts and found themselves in a quiet learning environment.

-the teachers that left were the cynical, burned out ones, and the teachers that arrived were the strong, motivated ones that
had chosen to be in the 'sink' school (they were paid more to do that job), and arrived with the kids. My sons have certainly
benefitted from these teachers -and I have thanked them personally for it (I came back from the 'open day' raving that I wanted to go back to school and be in their classes -their enthousiasm makes you want to learn !).

-The 'French' teacher that arrived is a tough young muslim arab man, who makes no secret of the fact that he comes from the same deprived background as the rough kids -indeed, some of the parents were worried about the language he was using in class at first. However, not only is he able to get the respect of the children, and keep the dicipline, but he is an inspiration;
the message he repeats is that equal opportunitis exist for those that want to study and gain the qualifications, and coming from a 'ghetto' is no excuse not to work. He is a 'role model'.

So, Robert, I have to say that that your idea of segregating the poor, class disrupting kids from the studious middle class ones, is only making the 'ghetto' stuation far worse and bound to make more violent offenders for society, when those kids
are older; sending them to Eton sounds like a good idea to me !

The solution apart from mixing the kids up, appears to be to stop sending too many young , female, teachers -straight out of training school- to 'sink' schools which no one wants to go to, but attract more specially trained tough young men, who want to be there by conviction, can keep the bullies under control, and show them an 'example'.

[cappuccina]

....and in doing some additional READING, LOL, I learned that not only do you think that the "vast majority want capital punishment", where you not only do not cite a country, or percentages, or WTF you're even talking about regarding your statements, but you also said this: "Every time there's an election, instead of voting I relax with a book or a plate of sausages..."

Perhaps the vasmajority of people who choose not to vote are lazy and/or ignorant...

Also, who is "the majority" of citizens you keep referring to who "want the DP"...

Here are some other facts about the DP for you, since you seem to be bereft of facts:

1. 80% of executions in the US take place in former Confederate states, the majority occurring in Texas.

2. Death sentences have decreased in recent years, and the number of Americans favoring a DP moratorium has gone up.

3. MI, the state I live in, which also contains one of the most crime ridden cities in the US, i.e., Detroit, abolished the DP in 1846, and will not be bringing it back any time soon.

4. In the US, in 2009, there were more than 14,000 murders but only 106 death sentences. The chances of being sentenced to death. therefore, is exceedingly small, being 0.76%.

5. Of those sentenced to death initially, 66% have their death sentences overturned on appeal or post-conviction review. (According to the Death Penalty Information Center, a smaller number of cases, 139, have been exonerated in the past 30 years, about a dozen on the basis of DNA evidence.) The few who are executed wait an average of more than 12 years, some for as long as 30 years. None of this makes for swift or sure deterrence. It also does not give rise to effective retributive punishment. Prolonged delays defer and dilute any satisfaction or "closure" that the punishment might bring. - David Garland

6. In the US, capital sentences cost 10 times more than life in prison without parole.

7. In many DP states in the US, the only people to be executed are "volunteers" -- death row inmates who abandon an appeals process that would otherwise keep them alive...In other words, death is preferable to them. Some even ask to die at the outset, saying that death is preferable over LWOP for them.

Sources: David Garland, DOJ statistics. DPIC

[Robert]

"Your point of saying that the statistics support abject poverty contributing to the overall level of violent crime, and then saying "So what"...is????????"

I've never said that "THE STATISTICS...."

Learn to read.

[Robert]

Claire, I have specifically tried to keep off the area of statistics. Therefore, I don't know if you're confusing me with Bob? I go along with a lot of what Bob says in general, but you'll understand that if you have a question about something that Bob's said, Bob's the best person to answer it.

[cappuccina]

...exactly, Claire, very well said...

[claire]

I'm not sure that the stats back up the statement, Robert, that most violent offenders are not from poorer social classes. However, it's quite clear that such offending amongst more affluent groups is likely under-reported; I'm specifically thinking of domestic violence, which I know wasn't your focus, but there is very obvious under-reporting of DV amongst middle class women who may, eventually, approach support agencies but not want the shame of prosecution. Oh, how **** all has changed in 150 years.

Nevertheless, problems with the stats notwithstanding, I don't think it's quite credible to presume that *most* violent offenders come from better backgrounds. In general, their residential areas are not good and they tend to offend on their own patch...it's such a truism that it's almost boring.

I think the likelihood is that you'll find a greater socio-economic distribution as you climb the seriousness ladder--affray, ABH, common assault et cetera are generally the domain of the lower-class offender (DV aside, although without a report/record, a classification on the offence is hard to come by), whereas I'd imagine you'd find a more proportionate representation of middle class offenders higher up that ladder (although I do suspect that their MOs are generally different).

I don't think for a moment that we should see people of a better socio-economic class as having a better upbringing, or one that mitigates against the possibility of offending. But I do think that, in keeping with the aspirations/ambitions of the middle classes to always have more, do more, be more, that middle class offenders commit very different sorts of crimes, in different ways...even when other posters have mentioned middle-class murderers, they seem to be motivated at least as much by money, the wish to gain it or the fear of losing it.

Anyhow, ramblings from your resident statistician and erstwhile Home Office criminologist. Crap, then, in other words!!

[cappuccina]

....just so you know....there is no great call in MI for the death penalty; however, there is a "great call" in MI, especially in Detroit for better education, more opportunities for children, more economic opportunities, etc.

P.S.....Your point of saying that the statistics support abject poverty contributing to the overall level of violent crime, and then saying "So what"...is????????

[Robert]

Are you deaf, or just stupid?

[cappuccina]

....ummmm, hon, the people are saying what I'm saying, that's why you see, e.g., neighborhood coalitions forming even in these terrible times in the poorest neighborhoods in Detroit to fight the high crime, etc., EXACTLY what I've been talking about...

For example: http://ndndhome.org/Brightmoor%20Alliance.htm

The Brightmoor neighborhood in Detroit is one of the United States' poorest and most dangerous neighborhoods, period. The crime rate there per capita is among the highest in our nation. Here are some pictures of Brightmoor; it looks like the bombed out parts of Beirut, literally, or worse:







So, Robert, tell me how you think that poverty is not contributing to the extraorinarily high crime rate here, and why: I'd be fascinated to hear your reasoning...



Seriously, dude, where do you live, in a castle, or on Mommy and Daddy's estate, or WTF??

(P.S. ...Just for fun...With your sniffy attitude and lack of "street smarts", you'd last exactly 3.5 minutes in Brightmoor DURING THE DAY...LOL)