Same Colorado Baker Refuses to Bake Cake Celebrating Gender Transition

[Abby Normal]

I'll certainly concur that "theybies" does indefensible violence to the language, and that people using it should be sent for re-education, at a minimum. That being said, it was common in the 19th c, and even into the Edwardian age, to speak of infants as "it". They weren't really seen as gendered until they began to talk.

So far as allowing people to decide their own race, gender, etc., insofar as these are social constructs, I see no reason not to. It hurts no-one.

Hi Ginger
I have a harder time letting people self identify as a different race (gender im open to as I explained previously).

A)its scientifically proven that there can be a "mix up" with gender biologically and psychologically.

B) no such thing with race. Youll have people self identifying as a minority then (at least in the states) just to get privileges meant for disadvantaged people. I draw the line here-but of course just my opinion.

[Herlock Sholmes]

By way of analogy, a minority of people are so wired that they get very ill if they eat gluten. Should we deny them treatment, or discourage the provision of gluten-free menu items, because the majority aren't thus affected? I don't see the coeliac minority imposing their truth on anybody else, and all they want is to lead happy, fulfilling lives. So who are we to deny them?

Of course not Gareth, we shouldn’t deny them their needs or their rights under the law, but I don’t think that we should take seriously someone that doesn’t medically require a gluten-free diet but feels that he/she should be intitled to self-identify as a ‘coeliac minority’ when they aren’t. This is what I disagree with. And I think that in some quarters attempts are being made to move us in that direction. There are people who are distinctly men or distinctly women, with no identity issues, with no desire to change sex, who are in a relationship with a member of the opposite sex and yet they still think that they should have a ‘gender neutral’ pronoun and they expect others to fall in with this nonsense.

[Sam Flynn]

Do we really want to live in a world where anything can be true just because a minority says it is?

By way of analogy, a minority of people are so wired that they get very ill if they eat gluten. Should we deny them treatment, or discourage the provision of gluten-free menu items, because the majority aren't thus affected? I don't see the coeliac minority imposing their truth on anybody else, and all they want is to lead happy, fulfilling lives. So who are we to deny them?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'll certainly concur that "theybies" does indefensible violence to the language, and that people using it should be sent for re-education, at a minimum. That being said, it was common in the 19th c, and even into the Edwardian age, to speak of infants as "it". They weren't really seen as gendered until they began to talk.

So far as allowing people to decide their own race, gender, etc., insofar as these are social constructs, I see no reason not to. It hurts no-one.

But they aren’t social constructs. It’s hurts anyone with any respect for what’s actually true. Do we really want to live in a world where anything can be true just because a minority says it is? And when we’ve handed the keys of the asylum over to the loonies what are they going to be asking for next? I think we need to start hammering steaks into the ground.

[c.d.]

This baker is certainly entitled to his views but I recall the oral argument before the Supreme Court regarding his refusal to bake a cake for a same sex marriage. One of the justices asked if a parent buys a birthday cake for his child that says Happy Birthday, Mary on it does he really believe that the baker is personally wishing his daughter Happy Birthday? That is why I am having trouble understanding why he feels so personally involved in what to me seems to be just a business transaction.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Why celebrate mental illness?

You are consistent in your views, Harry I will grant you that.

c.d.

[Ginger]

I saw something on YouTube about a group who think that, until they are 4 years old and can ‘decide’ their own gender babies should be identified as ‘theybies.’

I'll certainly concur that "theybies" does indefensible violence to the language, and that people using it should be sent for re-education, at a minimum. That being said, it was common in the 19th c, and even into the Edwardian age, to speak of infants as "it". They weren't really seen as gendered until they began to talk.

So far as allowing people to decide their own race, gender, etc., insofar as these are social constructs, I see no reason not to. It hurts no-one.

[Ginger]

Would you let an anorexic starve herself because she believes she's overweight?

Yes, I certainly would, so long as the consequences of her actions had been explained to her. It's far more important to have a satisfying life than a long one.

[Herlock Sholmes]

gotcha-agree with you there!

Cheers Abby It’s becoming a very weird world.

[Abby Normal]

Abby and Gareth,

I should have been more specific in my post. If someone feels that they wish to change gender then I’m not trying to oppose that. What I oppose is those that want to say, even if they have no desire to change gender (or feel they are trapped in the body of the opposite sex), that people should have things like gender-neutral pronouns. People who just think that using ‘he’ or ‘she’ is axiomatically a bad thing. People who try to insist on being called ‘they.’ People who think that babies should be called ‘theybies.’

I’m far from alone in thinking that things are getting pretty weird in certain areas. College campuses who are opposed to freedom of speech or thought. People who are genuinely trying to tell people that all white men are white supremacists, or mysoginists or potential rapists. Or people who can’t seem to understand that the criticism of a religion isnt equal to racism. I just find it more than a little worrying that ridiculous ‘ideas’ are taking hold amongst the younger generation. I mean ‘safe spaces!’ What next?

gotcha-agree with you there!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Abby and Gareth,

I should have been more specific in my post. If someone feels that they wish to change gender then I’m not trying to oppose that. What I oppose is those that want to say, even if they have no desire to change gender (or feel they are trapped in the body of the opposite sex), that people should have things like gender-neutral pronouns. People who just think that using ‘he’ or ‘she’ is axiomatically a bad thing. People who try to insist on being called ‘they.’ People who think that babies should be called ‘theybies.’

I’m far from alone in thinking that things are getting pretty weird in certain areas. College campuses who are opposed to freedom of speech or thought. People who are genuinely trying to tell people that all white men are white supremacists, or mysoginists or potential rapists. Or people who can’t seem to understand that the criticism of a religion isnt equal to racism. I just find it more than a little worrying that ridiculous ‘ideas’ are taking hold amongst the younger generation. I mean ‘safe spaces!’ What next?

[Sam Flynn]

It’s more than I bit worrying when you think about how far all this can go. Should a white man or woman be allowed to ‘identify’ as black or vice versa?

It's not quite a case of "allowed", Herlock - this is how some people feel, how they're "wired" if you like. It's not a black/white, horse/whelk thing either, rather one of which point one occupies on a spectrum.

[Abby Normal]

It’s more than I bit worrying when you think about how far all this can go. Should a white man or woman be allowed to ‘identify’ as black or vice versa? Should I be allowed to ‘indentify’ as a horse or a whelk? All this pronoun nonsense seems to me just an excuse for people to find a ‘cause’ no matter how pointless and silly. I saw something on YouTube about a group who think that, until they are 4 years old and can ‘decide’ their own gender babies should be identified as ‘theybies.’ This is indefensible lunacy. These people need to be overwhelmed by mockery until they go and find something else to do.

I think that we need to get the walls of their ‘safe spaces’ padded just so that they don’t hurt themselves whilst they’re in the middle of one of their self-hating, masochistic hand-wringing blubbering sessions.

What’s the world coming to?

HI HS
No- people should not be able to self identify as different races or species. of course that's nonsense.

but if someone thinks they are a man but biologically a woman and vice versus, and willing to go through a sex change operation, then IMHO that is OK. WE have no idea what torture it is to be trapped in the wrong gender body- i feel for them.

its similar to what gays had to go through before we got intellectually out of the dark ages.

[Abby Normal]

If you're biologically and anatomically a man and think you're a woman (or vice-versa) then your brain isn't hardwired right. We shouldn't contort reality in order for it to conform to our own mental delusions. Would you let an anorexic starve herself because she believes she's overweight?

It's only because we live in an increasingly permissive, postmodern society that stuff like this is becoming normalised.

or maybe your brain is hardwired right and your body isn't?

[Herlock Sholmes]

It’s more than I bit worrying when you think about how far all this can go. Should a white man or woman be allowed to ‘identify’ as black or vice versa? Should I be allowed to ‘indentify’ as a horse or a whelk? All this pronoun nonsense seems to me just an excuse for people to find a ‘cause’ no matter how pointless and silly. I saw something on YouTube about a group who think that, until they are 4 years old and can ‘decide’ their own gender babies should be identified as ‘theybies.’ This is indefensible lunacy. These people need to be overwhelmed by mockery until they go and find something else to do.

I think that we need to get the walls of their ‘safe spaces’ padded just so that they don’t hurt themselves whilst they’re in the middle of one of their self-hating, masochistic hand-wringing blubbering sessions.

What’s the world coming to?