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scan of Hanratty statement re Rhyl alibi

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  • #16
    I satyed in a B&B only a few weeks ago and nobody asked me to sign a book.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Limehouse View Post
      I satyed in a B&B only a few weeks ago and nobody asked me to sign a book.
      Hi Julie,


      Registration and Data Protection
      Key facts
      •All serviced and self-catering accommodation premises must keep a record of all guests over the age of 16. The record should include full name and nationality.
      •If you hold any personal information on guests or any other individuals, including employees (other than on odd scraps of paper), the Data Protection Act applies.
      •You must keep each guest's details for at least 12 months.
      Full acknowledgment to www.accommodationknowhow.co.uk

      I have not been able to discover if registration was compulsory in 1961, but I wouldn't mind betting that it was.

      Before I retired I stayed at many hotels, large and small; b&b's; and pubs with rooms, and I can't recall a single instance of my not being asked to sign in via a register or card. Whether I gave them my real name and address, or not, was up to me. These days, virtually everyone pays by credit- or debit-card anyway, so presumably can be traced if necessary.

      Never mind what Swanwick got up to in court, Grace Jones did have guests' registration books, and I am 100% certain that had JH actually signed in she would have been able to find it. Or at least some entry that she could have identified with him. Any argument that he was totally illiterate doesn't really stand up to scrutiny, as it seems that he was able to sign the book at The Hotel Vienna, albeit using an alias. And there are other instances of his being at least able to write in a very basic fashion, but it seems he wasn't up to composing anything like a letter or a postcard, viz, the postcards from Ireland and the letters he wrote from prison.

      All the best,

      Graham
      We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

      Comment


      • #18
        Hi Graham,
        The prison doctor is on record as saying that Hanratty could both read and write and explained this quite carefully,aware of previous comments made to the contrary it would appear! Hanratty's cursive writing at the top of the appeal for clemency certainly reveals a writer with reasonable competence-just as the prison doctor indicated in 1961.
        With regards to these Boarding Houses you talk about Graham-and with all respect;I travel to Wales at least half a dozen times a year and stop in Stratford on Avon at least three or four times each year when I go to the Shakespeare plays.I have never, ever, been required to sign a visitors book in any one of them and indeed when I have chosen to write in one it has always been of my own volition to say how impressed I/we are with the kindness or comforts of the place etc and I/we usually , though not always, pay cash .
        The exception is when we have stayed in hotels and then we have been required to sign the register.
        The guests Mrs Jones had that week were either regulars or people on business like Mr Sayle who was someone who was out from dawn to dusk during his stay.
        Hanratty says in his very first notes to his solicitor -ie the night of his very first mention of Rhyl- that he was originally going to stay at the B&B one night only---he remembers most notably the green bath at the top of that house -he asks if he can leave his case and only later decided to stay the extra night.He tells the solicitor there were two tables in the room he breakfasted in -why-? As Mrs Jones and her daughter said the house was full and Hanratty ,like other unofficial guests she had put up when they were full up ,breakfasted in their back room -away from the other guests and would certainly not sign any visitors book -thereby making their stay 'officially noted'.
        Huge huge risks all of them if Hanratty made the whole thing up in the middle of his trial and Ingledene had looked nothing at all like he had described !
        AtB
        Norma

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        • #19
          Hi Norma,

          The prison doctor is on record as saying that Hanratty could both read and write and explained this quite carefully,aware of previous comments made to the contrary it would appear! Hanratty's cursive writing at the top of the appeal for clemency certainly reveals a writer with reasonable competence-just as the prison doctor indicated in 1961.
          Then why did Hanratty bother to trouble Gerrard Leonard to write postcards for him when he was on his Irish jaunt? You can't have it both ways....

          I have never, ever, been required to sign a visitors book in any one of them and indeed
          Then according to what I've very recently found out they're breaking the law.

          As Mrs Jones and her daughter said the house was full and Hanratty ,like other unofficial guests she had put up when they were full up ,breakfasted in their back room -away from
          And Mrs Jones and her daughter were also breaking the law. And Swanwick caught them out.

          Huge huge risks all of them if Hanratty made the whole thing up in the middle of his trial and Ingledene had looked nothing at all like he had described
          !

          As far as the night of 22 August was concerned he most certainly did make the whole thing up in the middle of his trial when he realised his Liverpool 'alibi' wouldn't wash, and based his description of Ingledene upon that of many b&b's he'd formerly stayed in. Even his description of Mrs Jones was inaccurate.

          Graham
          We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

          Comment


          • #20
            Graham said


            Then why did Hanratty bother to trouble Gerrard Leonard to write postcards for him when he was on his Irish jaunt? You can't have it both ways....


            He lacked confidence which is a bit different from lacking competence....


            Then according to what I've very recently found out they're breaking the law.

            quite possibly


            And Mrs Jones and her daughter were also breaking the law. And Swanwick caught them out.

            !Indeed

            As far as the night of 22 August was concerned he most certainly did make the whole thing up in the middle of his trial when he realised his Liverpool 'alibi' wouldn't wash, and based his description of Ingledene upon that of many b&b's he'd formerly stayed in. Even his description of Mrs Jones was inaccurate.

            The judge didn't appear to think that he waas making the whole thing up in his summing up.
            Michael Sherrard is on record discussing the fact that Graham Swanwick and the prosecution took Mrs Dinwoody very seriously indeed and made up the most ridiculous scenarios to accommodate her statements-
            As for Mrs Jones-she had fair hair which six months later he remembered as greyish---she was 58 years of age so quite probably tinted her hair blond and it was possibly fading the days he met her.
            Best

            Comment


            • #21
              He lacked confidence which is a bit different from lacking competence....
              Oh come on, Norma - do me a favour!!!

              quite possibly
              Almost certainly....

              Never mind Mrs Dinwoodie - I'm talking about Mrs Jones here. JH said that the woman he met at Ingledene was, quote, "Middle-aged, about 50, average build. She wore glasses and had greyish hair". In fact, Mrs J was fair-haired and not at all grey-haired; she did not wear glasses; rather than being of 'average build' she was only 5' 2" tall.

              And let us never forget that Mrs Jones was shown only one photograph by his defence-team investigator Joe Gillbanks (who should have known better) - that of James Hanratty. Exactly the same thing happened with Mrs Dinwoodie, except that time it was by a police-officer, rather incredibly.

              At the trial, Swanwick said to Mrs Jones: "It would not be quite right, would it, to say that when you were shown the photograph yopu recognised it?" To which Mrs Jones replied, "Well, no". Swanwick then asked Mrs Jones to explain why she had said she recognised the man in the photograph, when she said that she could not remember if she had seen the person or not. Mrs Jones then said: "I got muddled because of the hair. He had not got that coloured hair when he was in our house". In actual fact, it was Terry Evans who suggested to Mrs Jones that she might not have recognised Hanratty in the courtroom because of the colour of his hair - in fact, Mrs Jones said that she was only 'almost sure' that she recognised him. Not completely sure. There is a big difference.

              Graham
              We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

              Comment


              • #22
                Btw Graham-since we are now talking about behaviour that is outside the law by today's rules regarding guest houses can I remind you that Valerie Storie's identification of Hanratty would be 'outside the law 'today-technically-and disqualified-on several counts--- but most importantly it would be disqualified on account of her first identifying someone else entirely i.e. Michael Clark a totally innocent volunteer............
                other grounds that would be argued by the defence as very risky would be her changed description on 31st August from dark eyes to very light blue and the fact the identikit she helped compose also showed a man. with dark eyes whereas Valerie later said he had light blue eyes.Hanratty had light blue eyes.

                Comment


                • #23
                  I think it's time for bed now, Norma, as you've gone off into the realms of Dreamland...

                  Graham
                  We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    [QUOTE=Graham;218270]Oh come on, Norma - do me a favour!!!



                    I have referred you the the words of the prison psychiatrist who found him of normal intelligence and able to read the newspapers he bought and write a letter in a 'fairly good hand'---see also the sentence i posted confirming this!



                    Almost certainly....

                    Never mind Mrs Dinwoodie - I'm talking about Mrs Jones here. JH said that the woman he met at Ingledene was, quote, "Middle-aged, about 50, average build. She wore glasses and had greyish hair". In fact, Mrs J was fair-haired and not at all grey-haired; she did not wear glasses; rather than being of 'average build' she was only 5' 2" tall


                    You are wrong here Graham. Mrs Jones
                    did wear glasses on occasion and has stated this clearly .

                    In 1961 5ft 2 ins was the average height of a woman.Today it is 5ft 4 ins.

                    And let us never forget that Mrs Jones was shown only one photograph by his defence-team investigator Joe Gillbanks (who should have known better) - that of James Hanratty. Exactly the same thing happened with Mrs Dinwoodie, except that time it was by a police-officer, rather incredibly.


                    A lot of very fishy stuff went on -----not least by police officers---dozens of withheld statements/ the use of extremely shady witnesses /the altered venue of the court/altered witness statements etc etc .


                    At the trial, Swanwick said to Mrs Jones: "It would not be quite right, would it, to say that when you were shown the photograph yopu recognised it?" To which Mrs Jones replied, "Well, no". Swanwick then asked Mrs Jones to explain why she had said she recognised the man in the photograph, when she said that she could not remember if she had seen the person or not. Mrs Jones then said: "I got muddled because of the hair. He had not got that coloured hair when he was in our house". In actual fact, it was Terry Evans who suggested to Mrs Jones that she might not have recognised Hanratty in the courtroom because of the colour of his hair - in fact, Mrs Jones said that she was only 'almost sure' that she recognised him. Not completely sure. There is a big difference.

                    OK she may not have been completely sure after 6 months had passedbut the fact is she immediately said she had seen him on being shown that photo-she didn't hesitate [unlike Valerie who took 20 minutes to 'be sure'----another thing that would disqualify her id today since any uncertainty disqualifies nowadays.Nor did Mrs Dinwoody show any hesitation.But her granddaughter did until she was shown a photo of him along with others in profile---then she picked him out immediately.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Graham View Post
                      I think it's time for bed now, Norma, as you've gone off into the realms of Dreamland...

                      Graham
                      Excuse me?- whats it to do with Hanratty?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Give me strength....

                        ....and that really is it for me tonight. I may as well conduct this debate with a sideboard.

                        Goodnight!

                        Graham
                        We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Rhyl funfair August 1962....

                          The following Youtube link gives interested viewers of this thread a flavour of how Rhyl fairground looked just 12 months after James Hanratty's 2 day stay at Ingledene. 13 and 3/4 minutes into the video can be seen the dodgems ride that Hanratty worked on for a few hours exactly 4 weeks earlier on July 25th 1961.

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ATZF7kdZjc
                          *************************************
                          "A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

                          "Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]

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                          • #28
                            And here is a flavour of how the seaside resort looked in the early 1960's...........
                            The humped back bridge which Hanratty remembered comes into view at 12 mins 15secs.

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KxRfjrSVyA
                            Last edited by Sherlock Houses; 12-14-2015, 12:53 PM.
                            *************************************
                            "A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

                            "Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Sherlock Houses View Post
                              And here is a flavour of how the seaside resort looked in the early 1960's...........
                              The humped back bridge which Hanratty remembered comes into view at 12 mins 15secs.

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KxRfjrSVyA
                              Humped back bridge ? It's humpback bridge you silly person !
                              *************************************
                              "A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

                              "Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Sherlock Houses View Post
                                The following Youtube link gives interested viewers of this thread a flavour of how Rhyl fairground looked just 12 months after James Hanratty's 2 day stay at Ingledene. 13 and 3/4 minutes into the video can be seen the dodgems ride that Hanratty worked on for a few hours exactly 4 weeks earlier on July 25th 1961.

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ATZF7kdZjc
                                Reference of course should be to ''James Hanratty's alleged 2 day stay at Ingledene''.

                                Furthermore, whilst Hanratty eventually claimed to be in Rhyl and not Liverpool when Michael Gregsten was being murdered and Valerie Storie raped, I don't believe he himself ever asserted that he stayed at Ingledene. The allegations as to Ingledene were made on his behalf by others, including a dreadful attempt by the landlady of the premises with no support from her records or the other guests who definitely were there.

                                Regards,
                                OneRound

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