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  • Fair enough, cobalt.

    But the prosecution case was made and made again in 2002, when it was upheld, with nobody disputing the elimination of the only other suspect, Peter Alphon. If the case had still not been strong enough, with the DNA evidence, to remove any remaining doubt in Hanratty's guilt, there would surely have been some way of obtaining a further appeal, and indeed a few years back on these boards we were told to expect one. I don't recall anyone with the required legal clout pushing robustly and repeatedly for a third appeal and being rebuffed every time by the powers that be, but maybe I missed it.

    I appreciate that you think Valerie was simply mistaken, and would agree with me that she'd have hated the idea of identifying the wrong man, leaving a rapist and murderer free to hurt others. But while she was still very much alive there were all sorts of attacks here on her honesty, accusing her of deliberate lies and deception. If I had been in her shoes - or rather, her wheelchair - and I'd read what people were saying openly all those years later, I'd have been sorely tempted to take action. But as such accusations invariably came from posters hiding their identity behind a pseudonym, she was intelligent enough not to treat any of them seriously.

    Love,

    Caz
    X

    "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


    Comment


    • Originally posted by djw View Post
      The Ministry of Justice have responded that they do not hold the information and the Home Office previously said they do not either. A search on the National Archives brings up a variety of results.

      Originally posted by Natalie Severn View Post
      DAILY MAIL ARTICLE PUBLISHED UNDER THE TITLE "THEY HANGED
      THE WRONG MAN" (May 1999) . .written by Roger Matthews on the report he produced in 1996 after a year's research during which he led a team of 20 as Detective Chief Superintendent Roger Matthews of Scotland Yard.

      Finally, as I dug still deeper, I came across matters that concerned me profoundly about the conduct of the investigation. It would be wholly improper for me to reveal details before the appeal hearing. Mention of KIP. Original notes of phone calls. The hotel register (copy). Disparity between evidence of SIO and Oxford. The manner in which a J Ryan was traced smelled of informant. Postcard utterly impossible

      Eventually, I acquainted my senior officers with my conclusion: a quite breathtaking miscarriage of justice had seemed to have taken place; just as Hanratty's family, friends and several distinguished writers had always maintained.

      My views were endorsed by my then Commander, Roy Ramm, head of the Yard's International and Organized Crime Group. In May 1996, we reported jointly and formally that the Metropolitan Police would not oppose a Home Office recommendation to the Home Secretary advising him to refer the case to the Court of Appeal. I was assured that a decision would be arrived at ''within weeks".

      This did not happen. Politicians had dodged the issue for over thirty years. The incumbent at the Home Office obviously saw no reason to depart from tradition. . .
      In April 1997 - perhaps appropriately on the 1st - a new body called the Criminal Cases Review Commission was set up. The matter was placed in their hands.
      Click image for larger version

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      Hello DJW,

      I have posted a quote from NatalieSevern above re the "Matthews Report" which purportedly was quoted from the Daily Mail in May 1999. I have also posted the actual section of the Daily Mail of 8th May 1999. You will see the differences, but the point I make is that the report was not solely the report of Roger Matthews and therefore may not be known as that by the Minister of Justice. It may be the report by Ramm and Matthews or by the Metropolitan Police. Also are we sure of the date of the report being 29th May 1996.

      You may have better luck making a request to the M of J for any written report to the Home Office or the M of J relating to the safety of the conviction of James Hanratty in 1962 and made by the Metropolitan Police or any police officer or police force in or about May 1996.

      Spitfire

      Comment


      • In the news clipping Commander Roy Ramm is described as being head of Scotland Yard's international and organised crime group. (Which makes it sound like a criminal enterprise in its own right!)
        Ramm was the man that Roger Matthews reported to in terms of his A6 investigation. I notice that the word 'organised' was highlighted in green and wonder whether this was of any significance?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by cobalt View Post
          In the news clipping Commander Roy Ramm is described as being head of Scotland Yard's international and organised crime group. (Which makes it sound like a criminal enterprise in its own right!)
          Ramm was the man that Roger Matthews reported to in terms of his A6 investigation. I notice that the word 'organised' was highlighted in green and wonder whether this was of any significance?
          I wondered about that also . (Looking him over on youtube he seems a similar type to Woffinden, could even be brothers.) Interesting that he resigned from the Met as Mathews's boss on completion of that officers one year investigation into the Hanratty case,in 1996, after the release/leak to the press of his reports findings. another coincidence??

          Comment


          • https://fb.watch/cWrHq8wBY4/ Roy Ramm showing the kind of passion for the death of Yvonne Fletcher, that he most likely witnessed in his Chief Superintendent Mathews in 1996 after the Hanratty investigation.

            Comment


            • Hi All,

              Please excuse my ignorance, but is it known whether Matthews commented publicly on the case again after the 2002 Appeal Judgement, which included the DNA evidence?

              I do acknowledge the problems with the original investigation and trial, and why there was a need for a second appeal, to test the various arguments for a serious miscarriage of justice. The Hanratty family must have been convinced at one time, along with so many others, that DNA would finally clear their Jim's name. Presumably Matthews, judging by his comments to the Daily Mail in May 1999, thought the same at that time?

              I'm just trying to get my own head round how some the most staunch Hanratty defenders got round the fact that when his body was exhumed in October 2000, his DNA proved a match to what was found on the surviving fragment of underwear and the hankie, and the staining on both items was said to be consistent with Hanratty having raped Valerie and hidden the murder weapon on the bus with his own used hankie. I do struggle with how those results could have been artificially engineered by a corrupt individual or series of individuals, between August 1961 and 2000, or how two accidental contamination incidents could have produced a result that appeared definitive and also confirmed Valerie's certainty that the wrong man was not hanged.

              By all means continue to argue that Hanratty ought to have been acquitted due to the incompetence of those involved in 1962, but that wouldn't make him innocent or Alphon guilty. Where is the third man?

              Love,

              Caz
              X

              "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


              Comment


              • Click image for larger version

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                The above is an extract of Mr Matthews' evidence given in the Court of Appeal in 2002 which I have taken from Rob Harriman's book. Mr Matthews was called by Mr Mansfield to give evidence in support of the appeal.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by caz View Post

                  Hi Derrick,

                  But Hanratty only claimed to be in Liverpool, and later Rhyl, when his semen (unless evidence to the contrary surfaces) was being deposited on a woman's underwear considerably further south.

                  There must have been a reason for Hanratty to suddenly decide he had gone on to Rhyl. Now if you accept that he genuinely had been asking for Liverpool's Tarleton St, while in Liverpool, and was also familiar with Rhyl's seafront and the roads leading directly off it, do you not find it a trifle odd that he said nothing, while fighting for his life during the trial, about asking for those rather specific directions before moving on to Rhyl, and then gave Rhyl, with its own very easy-to-find Tarleton St, as his shiny new improved alibi, when Liverpool's example could surely have saved his neck if only he had thought to mention his enquiry there?

                  None of it smells right and the jury smelled rotten fish.

                  Love,

                  Caz
                  X
                  I wanted to go back and see where all this started caz, wow 11 years ago and over 6000 post .
                  'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

                  Comment


                  • Well that was unsatisfactory, I thought the next question for Mathews was going to be"And did you at the conclusion decide that Hanratty certainly wasn't a person that should have been a suspect in the original police investigation."

                    Comment


                    • Hey there Caz. Spitfire alludes to Ron Harrimans book which I have read and struggled through, to glean as much information as I could. The question on the DNA which I would really like to have settled is one that would lay to rest the old chestnut which your good self always seem to be so confident about with regards to the existence or lack of DNA in the seminal fluid retrieved from Valeries clothing.My problem is this. If, and it seems to me a highly likely possibility, that the DNA has been corrupted by contamination, who, (and I'm pretty certain this would include any poster on this forum) ,is in a position to say how valuable,or useless is that DNA sample ? In other words how can we be sure that the contaminated sample has not been subjected to such abuse over the years,and indeed during the time frame of the period of the trial that it has not been rendered useless.. In order to sweep this aside one would need to have an unshakable belief in the authorities, that they are not guilty of allowing an innocent man to die, because for them the alternative would be excruciatingly unthinkable.The DNA was the ace up the sleeve for the Home secretary,and all subsequent Home secretaries after the Mathews bomb shell.
                      I'm sure your very trusting in all you hear from the government, and its wonderful justice system and always have been, especially during the incredible Met corruption of the early 60s. Forgive this old skeptic for not sharing your gullibility.
                      Love, Steve.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by moste View Post
                        Hey there Caz. Spitfire alludes to Ron Harrimans book which I have read and struggled through, to glean as much information as I could. The question on the DNA which I would really like to have settled is one that would lay to rest the old chestnut which your good self always seem to be so confident about with regards to the existence or lack of DNA in the seminal fluid retrieved from Valeries clothing.My problem is this. If, and it seems to me a highly likely possibility, that the DNA has been corrupted by contamination, who, (and I'm pretty certain this would include any poster on this forum) ,is in a position to say how valuable,or useless is that DNA sample ? In other words how can we be sure that the contaminated sample has not been subjected to such abuse over the years,and indeed during the time frame of the period of the trial that it has not been rendered useless.. In order to sweep this aside one would need to have an unshakable belief in the authorities, that they are not guilty of allowing an innocent man to die, because for them the alternative would be excruciatingly unthinkable.The DNA was the ace up the sleeve for the Home secretary,and all subsequent Home secretaries after the Mathews bomb shell.
                        I'm sure your very trusting in all you hear from the government, and its wonderful justice system and always have been, especially during the incredible Met corruption of the early 60s. Forgive this old skeptic for not sharing your gullibility.
                        Love, Steve.
                        Well you couldn't be more wrong, Steve. I wouldn't trust this government to boil a kettle, and any justice system will have its flaws.

                        What you appear to suggest is that I don't believe there have ever been any miscarriages of justice, which is as absurd as suggesting that you think our prisons are full of innocent men and women.

                        If the DNA profile from Valerie's clothing and the hankie had not proved a perfect match with DNA taken from Hanratty's exhumed remains, but had produced a less than conclusive result from either item, or findings which could reasonably have been explained by separate contamination incidents, I would now be as concerned as you are if the 2002 appeal had still been rejected.

                        But sometimes, despite your deep and not entirely misplaced distrust of authority, it is what it looks like, and what many hoped for and expected it to be - an innocent man emerging from the DNA evidence - was never going to happen, because the original jury got it right, though not necessarily for all the right reasons. If Hanratty had told a straight, credible story about his movements and whereabouts, and not caught himself out by lying, it wouldn't have mattered that he had no documentary proof of his alibi, as long as it gave him the benefit of the doubt. Valerie put him in the car with her, while he put himself in two other places at once. Not a good look - especially if he, like yourself, had little trust in the police and the justice system to treat him fairly.

                        Love,

                        Caz
                        X


                        "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by caz View Post

                          Well you couldn't be more wrong, Steve. I wouldn't trust this government to boil a kettle, and any justice system will have its flaws.

                          What you appear to suggest is that I don't believe there have ever been any miscarriages of justice, which is as absurd as suggesting that you think our prisons are full of innocent men and women.

                          If the DNA profile from Valerie's clothing and the hankie had not proved a perfect match with DNA taken from Hanratty's exhumed remains, but had produced a less than conclusive result from either item, or findings which could reasonably have been explained by separate contamination incidents, I would now be as concerned as you are if the 2002 appeal had still been rejected.

                          But sometimes, despite your deep and not entirely misplaced distrust of authority, it is what it looks like, and what many hoped for and expected it to be - an innocent man emerging from the DNA evidence - was never going to happen, because the original jury got it right, though not necessarily for all the right reasons. If Hanratty had told a straight, credible story about his movements and whereabouts, and not caught himself out by lying, it wouldn't have mattered that he had no documentary proof of his alibi, as long as it gave him the benefit of the doubt. Valerie put him in the car with her, while he put himself in two other places at once. Not a good look - especially if he, like yourself, had little trust in the police and the justice system to treat him fairly.

                          Love,

                          Caz
                          X

                          I bet he, Hanratty didn't think he was going to get a fair deal from the Police. Look what had happened to Timothy Evans of Rillington Place just ten years earlier. I mean Evans treatment by police was general knowledge in Britian. Not that I think Hanratty was innocent, but I think most people of Hanratty's class/social stratus of that time probably knew or suspected they were going to get the short stick from Police if they were suspected of something.

                          Comment


                          • Lord Howard comments
                            Thank you for your email of 9th May.

                            I am afraid I have absolutely no idea what happened to the report to which you refer.

                            I am surprised that the Home Office say they don't have it but I certainly don't and, regrettably, I have no idea who may have it.

                            I am so sorry not to be more helpful.

                            Best wishes,

                            Michael Howard

                            Comment


                            • The Metropolitan Police have looked into this and found that they do not hold the information either
                              https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque...coming-2066129

                              Comment


                              • I admire your perseverance. If nothing else it proves that whoever does have the file, doesn't want to release it. Now why would that be, if Hanratty committed the crime?

                                Howard may have no idea who may have the file but I bet he's got a bloody good recollection of what was in it and, more importantly, its conclusions.

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